Should standards that become a part of a law be free to the public?

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Chotu

.. Your responsibility is to carry the lifejacket and flares. That's the part of the law that applies to you.

Mustang sells float suits for ~ $500. European manufactures (and they have a LOT more experience with cold water commercial fishing) sell similar suits for 1/3 that, and it is NOT a cheaper market. How is this possible?



Do you know the differences between the USCG standard and a very similar ISO standard? No, you do not, because the ISO standard is copyrighted. Mustang, as a result, is protected. The European suits are hard to find in the US market.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Chotu

... You can get copies of the standards if you ask around really nicely. They are well shared in the community.

Now you suggest we do something illegal. You apparently have. That is your solution?

Yes, I have copies of many standards, some that I paid for (to get certain licenses you have to prove you paid for copies of the applicable standards--how's that for a racket?), and some not. Some I have shared to allow people to work more safely. I wish it was more open. I've never developed a standard I did not WANT to be public.

[Dsanduril]

Below are some of the standards incorporated by reference in US federal regulations and relevant to us. To review these I can visit the USCG in Washington DC, or possibly check NARA. The link at NARA is entirely useful:

Who to Contact

For more information about a standard:

Use the contact information contained in the regulation to:
Contact the agency that issued the regulation containing the IBR standard.
Contact the standards organization that developed and published the material.
Some standards organizations have online reading rooms that are free to the public, to registered users, or to organization members. Some of the standards incorporated by reference may be accessible at these standards organization web sites:

If these standards are part of law then there should be no “some” in the requirements for access - they should be fully and completely published in the Federal Register and available for free anywhere the CFR can be accessed. Same for local laws and regulations that incorporate building codes and similar standards. It is particularly useful that if I want to read ISO standards that have become law I can visit their offices in Geneva

§ 175.600 Incorporation by reference.
(a) Certain material is incorporated by reference into this subchapter with the approval of the Director of the Federal Register in accordance with 5 U.S.C. 552(a) and 1 CFR part 51. All approved material is available for inspection at the U.S. Coast Guard, Office of Design and Engineering Standards (CG-ENG), 2703 Martin Luther King Jr. Avenue SE., Stop 7509, Washington, DC 20593-7509, and is available from the sources listed below. It is also available for inspection at the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA). For information on the availability of this material at NARA, call 202-741-6030 or go to http://www.archives.gov/federal_regi...locations.html.

(b) American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC), 613 Third St., Suite 10, Annapolis, MD 21403, 410-990-4460, http://www.abycinc.org.

(1) A-1-93, Marine Liquefied Petroleum Gas (LPG) Systems (“ABYC A-1”), IBR approved for § 184.240(a), (c), (d), and (g).

(2) A-3-93, Galley Stoves (“ABYC A-3”), IBR approved for § 184.200.

(3) A-7-70, Boat Heating Systems (“ABYC A-7”), IBR approved for § 184.200.

(4) A-16-89, Electric Navigation Lights (“ABYC A-16”), IBR approved for § 183.130(a).

(5) A-22-93, Marine Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) Systems (“ABYC A-22”), IBR approved for § 184.240(b) through (e).

(6) E-8, Alternating Current (AC) Electrical Systems on Boats, July 2001 (“ABYC E-8”), IBR approved for §§ 183.130(a) and 183.340(b).

(7) E-9, Direct Current (DC) Electrical Systems on Boats (May 28, 1990) (“ABYC E-9”), IBR approved for §§ 183.130(a) and 183.340(b).

(8) H-2-89, Ventilation of Boats Using Gasoline (“ABYC H-2”), IBR approved for §§ 182.130 and 182.460(m).

(9) H-22-86, DC Electric Bilge Pumps Operating Under 50 Volts (“ABYC H-22”), IBR approved for §§ 182.130 and 182.500(b).

(10) H-24-93, Gasoline Fuel Systems (“ABYC H-24”), IBR approved for §§ 182.130, 182.440(d), 182.445, 182.450(f) and 182.455(c).

(11) H-25-94, Portable Gasoline Fuel Systems for Flammable Liquids (“ABYC H-25”), IBR approved for §§ 182.130 and 182.458(b).

(12) H-32-87, Ventilation of Boats Using Diesel Fuel (“ABYC H-32”), IBR approved for §§ 182.130, 182.465(i) and 182.470(c).

(13) H-33-89, Diesel Fuel Systems (“ABYC H-33”), IBR approved for §§ 182.130, 182.440(d), 182.445(f), 182.450(f) and 182.455(c).

(14) P-1-93, Installation of Exhaust Systems for Propulsion and Auxiliary Engines (“ABYC P-1”), IBR approved for §§ 177.405(b), 177.410(c), 182.130, 182.425(c), and 182.430(k).

(15) P-4-89, Marine Inboard Engines (“ABYC P-4”), IBR approved for §§ 182.130 and 182.420(b) and (d).

(c) American Bureau of Shipping (ABS), ABS Plaza, 16855 Northchase Drive, Houston, TX 77060, 281-877-5800, http://ww2.eagle.org.

(1) Guide for High Speed Craft, 1997 (“ABS High Speed Craft”), IBR approved for § 177.300(c) and (d).

(2) Rules for Building and Classing Aluminum Vessels, 1975 (“ABS Aluminum Vessel Rules”), IBR approved for § 177.300(d).

(3) Rules for Building and Classing Reinforced Plastic Vessels, 1978 (“ABS Plastic Vessel Rules”), IBR approved for § 177.300(c).

(4) Rules for Building and Classing Steel Vessels, 1995 (“ABS Steel Vessel Rules”), IBR approved for § 183.360(b).

(5) Rules for Building and Classing Steel Vessels Under 61 Meters (200 feet) in Length, 1983 (“ABS Steel Vessel Rules (≤61 Meters)”), IBR approved for § 177.300.

(6) Rules for Building and Classing Steel Vessels for Service on Rivers and Intracoastal Waterways, 1995 (“ABS Steel Vessel Rules (Rivers/Intracoastal)”), IBR approved for § 177.300(e).

(d) American National Standards Institute (ANSI), 25 West 43rd St., New York, NY 10036, 212-642-4900, http://www.ansi.org.

(1) A 17.1-1984, including supplements A 17.1a and B-1985, Safety Code for Elevators and Escalators (“ANSI A 17.1”), IBR approved for § 183.540.

(2) B 31.1-1986, Code for Pressure Piping, Power Piping (“ANSI B 31.1.”), IBR approved for § 182.710(c).

(3) Motor Vehicles Operating on Land Highways (“ANSI Z 26.1”), IBR approved for § 177.1030(b).

(e) ASTM International, 100 Barr Harbor Drive, P.O. Box C700, West Conshohocken, PA 19428, 877-909-2786, http://www.astm.org.

(1) ASTM B 96-93, Standard Specification for Copper-Silicon Alloy Plate, Sheet, Strip, and Rolled Bar for General Purposes and Pressure Vessels (“ASTM B 96”), IBR approved for § 182.440(a).

(2) ASTM B 117-97, Standard Practice for Operating Salt Spray (Fog) Apparatus (“ASTM B 117”), IBR approved for § 175.400.

(3) ASTM B 122/B 122M-95, Standard Specification for Copper-Nickel-Tin Alloy, Copper-Nickel-Zinc Alloy (Nickel Silver), and Copper-Nickel Alloy Plate, Sheet, Strip and Rolled Bar (“ASTM B 122”), IBR approved for § 182.440(a).

(4) ASTM B 127-98, Standard Specification for Nickel-Copper Alloy (UNS NO4400) Plate, Sheet, and Strip (“ASTM B 127”), IBR approved for § 182.440(a).

(5) ASTM B 152-97a, Standard Specification for Copper Sheet, Strip, Plate, and Rolled Bar (“ASTM B 152”), IBR approved for § 182.440(a).

(6) ASTM B 209-96, Standard Specification for Aluminum and Aluminum-Alloy Sheet and Plate (“ASTM B 209”), IBR approved for § 182.440(a).

(7) ASTM D 93-97, Standard Test Methods for Flash Point by Pensky-Martens Closed Cup Tester (“ASTM D 93”), IBR approved for § 175.400.

(8) ASTM D 635-97, Standard Test Method for Rate of Burning and or Extent and Time of Burning of Self-Supporting Plastics in a Horizontal Position (“ASTM D 635”), IBR approved for § 182.440(a).

(9) ASTM D 2863-95, Standard Method for Measuring the Minimum Oxygen Concentration to Support Candle-Like Combustion of Plastics (Oxygen Index) (“ASTM D 2863”), IBR approved for § 182.440(a).

(10) ASTM E 84-98, Standard Test Method for Surface Burning Characteristics of Building Materials (“ASTM E 84”), IBR approved for § 177.410(a) and (b).

(f) DLA Document Services, Building 4D, 700 Robbins Avenue, Philadelphia, PA 19111, http://quicksearch.dla.mil.

(1) Military Specification MIL-P-21929C, Plastic Material, Cellular Polyurethane, Foam-in-Place, Rigid (2 and 4 pounds per cubic foot), 1991 (“NPFC MIL-P-21929C”), IBR approved for § 179.240(b).

(2) Military Specification MIL-R-21607E(SH), Resins, Polyester, Low Pressure Laminating, Fire Retardant (“NPFC MIL-R-21607E(SH)”), 1990 IBR approved for § 177.410.

(g) Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, Inc. (IEEE), IEEE Service Center, 445 Hoes Lane, Piscataway, NJ 08854, 800-678-4333, http://www.ieee.org.

(1) Standard 45-1977, Recommended Practice for Electrical Installations on Shipboard (“IEEE 45-1977”), IBR approved for § 183.340(o).

(2) [Reserved]

(h) International Maritime Organization (IMO) Publishing, 4 Albert Embankment, London SE1 7SR, United Kingdom, +44 (0)20 7735 7611, International Maritime Organization.

(1) Resolution A.520(13), Code of Practice for the Evaluation, Testing and Acceptance of Prototype Novel Life-Saving Appliances and Arrangements, dated 17 November 1983 (“IMO Resolution A.520(13)”), IBR approved for § 175.540(c).

(2) Resolution A.658(16), Use and Fitting of Retro-Reflective Materials on Life-Saving Appliances, dated 20 November 1989 (“IMO Resolution A. 658(16)”), IBR approved for § 185.604(h) and (i).

(3) Resolution A.688(17), Fire Test Procedures For Ignitability of Bedding Components (“IMO Resolution A. 688(17)”), dated 6 November 1991, IBR approved for § 177.405(g).

(4) Resolution A.760(18), Symbols Related to Life-Saving Appliances and Arrangements (“IMO Resolution A.760(18)”), dated 17 November 1993, IBR approved for § 185.604(f).

(5) International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS), as amended, Consolidated Edition, 2009, including Erratum, IBR approved for § 177.420.

(i) International Organization for Standardization (ISO), Case postale 56, CH-1211 Geneva 20, Switzerland, +41 22 749 01 11, http://www.iso.org.

(1) ISO 8846, Small Craft-Electrical Devices-Protection Against Ignition of Surrounding Flammable Gases, December 1990 (“ISO 8846”), IBR approved for § 182.500(b).

(2) ISO 8849, Small Craft-Electrically Operated Bilge Pumps, December 15, 1990 (“ISO 8849”), IBR approved for § 182.500(b).

(j) Lloyd's Register of Shipping, 71 Fenchurch Street, London EC3M 4BS, +44 (0)20 7709 9166, http://www.lr.org.

(1) Rules and Regulations for the Classification of Yachts and Small Craft, as amended through 1983 (“Lloyd's Yachts and Small Craft”), IBR approved for § 177.300(a).

(2) [Reserved]

(k) National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), 1 Batterymarch Park, Quincy, MA 02169, 617-770-3000, http://www.nfpa.org.

(1) NFPA 10, Standard for Portable Fire Extinguishers, 2010 Edition, effective December 5, 2009, IBR approved for § 176.810(b).

(2) NFPA 17-1994, Dry Chemical Extinguishing Systems, 1994 Edition, IBR approved for § 181.425(b).

(3) NFPA 17A-1994, Wet Chemical Extinguishing Systems, 1994 Edition, IBR approved for § 181.425(b).

(4) NFPA 70-1996, National Electrical Code (NEC), 1996 Edition, IBR approved for §§ 183.320(d) and (e), 183.340(d) and (o), and 183.372(c).

(5) NFPA 302-1994, Pleasure and Commercial Motor Craft, Chapter 6, 1994 Edition, IBR approved for §§ 184.200 and 184.240(a) through (c), (d) and (h).

(6) NFPA 306-1993, Control of Gas Hazards on Vessels, 1993 Edition, IBR approved for § 176.710(a).

(7) NFPA 1963-1989, Fire Hose Connections, 1989 Edition, IBR approved for § 181.320(b).

(l) Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE), 400 Commonwealth Drive, Warrendale, PA 15096, 724-776-4841, http://www.sae.org.

(1) SAE J-1475, Hydraulic Hose Fittings For Marine Applications, 1984 (“SAE J-1475”), IBR approved for § 182.720(e).

(2) SAE J-1928, Devices Providing Backfire Flame Control for Gasoline Engines in Marine Applications, August 1989 (“SAE J-1928”), IBR approved for § 182.415(c).

(3) SAE J-1942, Hose and Hose Assemblies for Marine Applications, 1992 (“SAE J-1942”), IBR approved for § 182.720(e).

(m) UL (formerly Underwriters Laboratories), 12 Laboratory Drive, P.O. Box 13995, Research Triangle Park, NC 27709, 919-549-1400, http://www.ul.com.

(1) UL 19 - Standard for Safety for Lined Fire Hose and Hose Assemblies, Twelfth Edition, approved November 30, 2001, IBR approved for § 181.320(b).

(2) UL 174-1989, as amended through June 23, 1994, Household Electric Storage Tank Heaters (“UL 174”), IBR approved for § 182.320(a).

(3) UL 217-1998, Single and Multiple Station Smoke Detectors (“UL 217”), IBR approved for § 181.450(a).

(4) UL 486A-1992, Wire Connectors and Soldering Lugs For Use With Copper Conductors (“UL 486A”), IBR approved for § 183.340(i).

(5) UL 489-1995, Molded-Case Circuit Breakers and Circuit Breaker Enclosures (“UL 489”), IBR approved for § 183.380(m).

(6) UL 595-1991, Marine Type Electric Lighting Fixtures (“UL 595”), IBR approved for § 183.410(d).

(7) UL 710-1990, as amended through September 16, 1993, Exhaust Hoods For Commercial Cooking Equipment (“UL 710”), IBR approved for § 181.425(a).

(8) UL 1058-1989, as amended through April 19, 1994, Halogenated Agent Extinguishing System Units (“UL 1058”), IBR approved for § 181.410(g).

(9) UL 1102-1992, Non integral Marine Fuel Tanks (“UL 1102”), IBR approved for § 182.440(a).

(10) UL 1110-1988, as amended through May 16, 1994, Marine Combustible Gas Indicators (“UL 1110”), IBR approved for § 182.480(a).

(11) UL 1111-1988, Marine Carburetor Flame Arresters (“UL 1111”), IBR approved for § 182.415(c).

(12) UL 1113, Electrically Operated Pumps for Nonflammable Liquids, Marine, Third Edition (Sep. 4, 1997) (“UL 1113”), IBR approved for § 182.520(e).

(13) UL 1453-1988, as amended through June 7, 1994, Electric Booster and Commercial Storage Tank Water Heaters (“UL 1453”), IBR approved for § 182.320(a).

(14) UL 1570-1995, Fluorescent Lighting Fixtures (“UL 1570”), IBR approved for § 183.410(d).

(15) UL 1571-1995, Incandescent Lighting Fixtures (“UL 1571”), IBR approved for § 183.410(d).

(16) UL 1572-1995, High Intensity Discharge Lighting Fixtures (“UL 1572”), IBR approved for § 183.410(d).

(17) UL 1573-1995, Stage and Studio Lighting Units (“UL 1573”), IBR approved for § 183.410(d).

(18) UL 1574-1995, Track Lighting Systems (“UL 1574”), IBR approved for § 183.410(d).

[USCG-2012-0196, 81 FR 48296, July 22, 2016]

[Michael Pope]

If an individual ( type A) constructs a fence around its property and the purpose of the fence is the safety and well being of the individual then that individual owns the fence and should be solely responsible for the costs------If the surrounding space "MASS" is populated and controlled by individuals who routinely consume or in other obvious manners harm the well being of Type A Then the responsibility for the cost and maintenance of the barrier lies with the total population of all space " MASS" , exclusive of that designated as Type A.
It is in this age apparently assumed that this MASS will adjudge the portion of the cost and benefit of said Barrier be fairly and in a Democratic manner proportioned amongst all MASS type individuals . May God , Allah. or Buda help them. It has never worked yet but some have HOPES ( also generally labelled as " Nuts")
It is like I was saying about killing Sailors at sea do not forbid it and call it Murder if on page two you say " Its OK as long as you can hide the evidence for two years or whatever!!!! Michael Pope Like the "Pillar of salt " There is no reverse gear!

[thinwater]

You can find the long CFR answer here (2014). There has been considerable discussion.

https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...n-by-reference


1 CFR part 51



What publications are eligible?
(a) A publication is eligible for incorporation by reference under 5 U.S.C. 552(a) if it—
(1) Conforms to the policy stated in § 51.1;
(2)(i) Is published data, criteria, standards, specifications, techniques, illustrations, or similar material; and
(ii) Does not detract from the usefulness of the Federal Register publication system; and
(3) Is reasonably available to and usable by the class of persons affected. In determining whether a publication is usable, the Director will consider—
(i) The completeness and ease of handling of the publication; and
(ii) Whether it is bound, numbered, and organized, as applicable.


I found the following analysis amusing. Since technically, the rule only dictates how laws are written, it only affects the people writing the laws. Oh for heaven's sake, a 3rd grader can see the hole in that logic.

Regulatory Flexibility Act

This rule will not have a significant impact on small entities since it imposes requirements only on Federal agencies.[107] Members of the public can access Federal Register publications for free through the Government Printing Office's Web site. Accordingly, the head of the agency certifies that the rule will not, if promulgated, have a significant economic impact on a substantial number of small entities.

[zstine]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

Below are some of the standards incorporated by reference in US federal regulations and relevant to us. To review these I can visit the USCG in Washington DC, or possibly check NARA. The link at NARA is entirely useful:

LIST OF ABYC, ETC not shown.....

If these standards are part of law then there should be no “some” in the requirements for access - they should be fully and completely published in the Federal Register and available for free anywhere the CFR can be accessed. Same for local laws and regulations that incorporate building codes and similar standards. It is particularly useful that if I want to read ISO standards that have become law I can visit their offices in Geneva

There are ZERO ABYC standards required on recreational yachts that are not also included in public fed specs. The specs Dsanduril referenced are for Commercial passenger vessels requiring a USCG Cert Of Inspection. NOT recreational boats. There are no requirements for ship stability, hull integrity, not even hull valves for recreational boats built by manufactures!!



Yes, 100% of all federal requirements imposed on ALL citizens should be (and are) FREE!! BUT commercial requirements need not be free. For example, any law pertaining to all drivers/cars on the road should be, and are, free to the public, but laws for commercial drivers/trucks need not be free.



There are ZERO ABYC standards required on recreational yachts that are not also included in public fed specs, often reworded/modified.



CE cert is 100% voluntary for US manufactures.


If you want to make a mod to your boat and comply with ABYC, pay up or ask questions of knowledgeable people and you can probably get there for free.


Yes, there are a lot of private standards ISO, ABYC, ASTM, etc. that are required for commercial or professional businesses. If you require a professional certification to perform work governed by those spec's, then it is okay to pay. Paying is part of the cost of doing business.


The BIG PROBLEM is Insurance companies! Some insurance companies, being private, can and do require you to meet private regulations and that is BS, b/c most marinas require you to have insurance to dock.

So, even though ABYC is not required on any manufacture of recreational boats, it is often expected to pass a survey that the insurance co. requires which in-turn is required to dock in the US... Foreign boats often don't carry insurance. Insurance is Big USA business, not found so much elsewhere... like health insurance, etc.

[toddster8]

Also a pet peeve of mine.

1) Many protected "standards," when they are finally revealed, are complete nonsense. (Looking at you A**M.) One likes to assume that this is more due to incompetence than malevolent scheming. But there is no public review or validation going on. And yes, I've seen some of these incorporated by reference into law.
2) Some are deliberately written to drum up business for a specific entity. I.e. only one facility on the planet can "qualify" to perform the magical "certification." Hey, and guess who wrote it?
3) After paying $150 for a "standard," one discovers that it is mainly a list of 20 or 30 other "standards," which one must also purchase.

[zstine]

Originally Posted by thinwater

. . .

• You are required to have XYZ gizmo on the boat, which did not come with the boat, and it most be built to ISO XXXX. Since you have no access to the standard, you must buy from a company that stamps that number on it. This is no accident, it is protectionism. You can't even compare equivalence between standards. Many devises are listed under multiple standards, and only large companies can afford to list under all applicable standards. Carabiners are just one example. ANSI, BS, UIAA, ISO, NFPA, and EN all have overlapping standards.
• . . .

You are never required to have XYZ gizmo on the boat the did not come with the boat... assuming we are talking about 'part of the boat' not added gear. As of the date of manufacture, the boat is certified as compliant and contains all required gizmos. New laws passed after date of manufacture do not apply as the original manufacture's cert would be grandfathered. If the manufacture was required to, but did not install XYZ gizmo, this would be a defect and covered under warranty as required by section 179

[Dave_S]

In my opinion.

In my experience standards lower the quality of the products.

We are a small niche manufacturer of high end product and we have witnessed the creation of a new set of standards. The end result is a standard that is heavily influenced by the big manufacturers to give them a commercial advantage over the opposition not better product. They squabble over ridiculous points and lie, cheat, manipulate, and bribe their way to get some advantage.

They then devote resources to meet the standard in the cheapest way possible, but they are not working to the spirit of the standard they have found a loop hole to exploit in the legal definition.

[ramblinrod]

I find it truly amazing that intelligent people can believe everything they want should be “free”...

...and the things they get do get for “free” come at no cost.

It has already been stated that the cost to develop safety standards is expensive.

Anyone can reasonably surmise that getting 20 or so industry technical professionals to collaborate to develop useful standards, is most certainly not going to be “free”.

So if they are made available to the public at no charge, who the heck do you believe is paying for it?

The government?

Where does the government get its money?

Oh yeah.

And we all know how good the government is at doing anything efficiently with our money.

I’m all for standards being developed by non-profit organizations who sell that at a fraction of what it would cost for the government to develop the standards and then charge taxpayers so they could be published for “free”.

Let’s see, everyone’s taxes increase $2000/ yr so BillyBob can see what he needs to do not to blow his boat up installing a portable gasoline generator?

I believe if Billy Bob is contemplating doing something, for which there is a safety standard (meaning some really smart people have reviewed historical incidents and determined there are inherent hazards that can be avoided or risks reduced if done a certain way) if Billy Bob can’t afford the standard, he prolly shouldn’t be messing with it in the first place.

[Dsanduril]

I don’t dispute that standards are expensive and time consuming to develop, evaluate, update, etc. And I don’t dispute the value of standards in general - although I may in specifics.

But when a standard is embodied in legislation that is a different matter. Any legislation, no matter what or to whom applicable must be available to every single member of the society that promulgated that legislation. And if a standards body allows their copyrighted standard to be incorporated into legislation then they lose all claim to copyright.

If you argue that “it only applies to manufacturers” then how am I as a consumer supposed to evaluate the compliance of the product I am purchasing? Take the word of the manufacturer? Or some “certifying agency”? That may be how I operate, but I should be able to determine for myself, if I want to, whether or not the product meets regulatory requirements. Why would I want to? Cigarettes, oil, asbestos, Roundup, Boeing, etc. There are literally uncountable cases where both the manufacturer and the regulatory watchdogs failed in their duty to evaluate the compliance of manufactured products with the regulations.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

I don’t dispute that standards are expensive and time consuming to develop, evaluate, update, etc. And I don’t dispute the value of standards in general - although I may in specifics.

But when a standard is embodied in legislation that is a different matter. Any legislation, no matter what or to whom applicable must be available to every single member of the society that promulgated that legislation. And if a standards body allows their copyrighted standard to be incorporated into legislation then they lose all claim to copyright.

If you argue that “it only applies to manufacturers” then how am I as a consumer supposed to evaluate the compliance of the product I am purchasing? Take the word of the manufacturer? Or some “certifying agency”? That may be how I operate, but I should be able to determine for myself, if I want to, whether or not the product meets regulatory requirements. Why would I want to? Cigarettes, oil, asbestos, Roundup, Boeing, etc. There are literally uncountable cases where both the manufacturer and the regulatory watchdogs failed in their duty to evaluate the compliance of manufactured products with the regulations.

I’m sorry; I completely disagree that a legislative reference to a technical safety standard necessitates that standard be made “free” (meaning all tax payers have to cover the cost of the select few to have access to the standard without paying directly.)

The free part, is being told there is a standard one must comply with. If one chooses to proceed with the voluntary activity the standard covers, the user should pay, not all of society.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by thinwater

The act, of course. The same in true in the US and probably most countries. But do they then post the referenced ISO and ASTM standards? I doubt that. For example, does the government post ISO tether, harness, and PFD standards? I am honestly interested.

I'll do some checking later on today and get back.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by GordMay

None of those links, I posted in 2009 (#34), is currently active.

After ten years I'm not surprised.


It appeared to me the same sort of questions were being asked ten years ago and I thought others would be interested in the thread.

[boatpoker]

Carefully read Zstine post #34 and #38. There is no need to read anything else in this thread