Rudder shaft

[Mercator30]

Rawson 30 Pilothouse
Rudder post as it comes through the hull. Unsure as to what is underneath the support built up around it.

Anyone familiar with this style of supporting the shaft? I am considering laying cloth from the floor of the hull up around the shaft to the waterline over the top of the built up resin support. Thoughts?

[Captsteve53]

You dont say if you are in the water or dry?

That looks like a simple Galvanized pipe fitting? and not a marine approved gland packing

Either way eventually you need to remove whats there and do the job correctly, once all cleaned up and the new approved GLAND FITTING INSTALLED then it can be fiber-glassed back into place

Going over with GRP matt etc at present would only be a VERY temporary FIX!!

[Captsteve53]

Have a look at this link regarding rudder stuffing box repair

Haulout 2016 Part 1: Replacing the rudder stuffing box hose and repacking rudder stuffing box – Life on Gudgeon

Cheers Steve

[Fore and Aft]

It is pictures like that rudder gland set up that make me shake my head as a marine surveyor. But then I always have a chuckle as I would love to know how long it has been like that? Obviously it has worked like that for a long time and if Michelangelo had of put a layer of glass over his bog sculpture it might not have cracked.
Realistically it should all be chipped away and properly repaired. Definitely a packing nut like the one in Steves link should be used as well. Not a big repair, just an awkward area to access.
Cheers

[Mercator30]

My bad for not providing more details. The current configuration is a bronze rudder tube that if done as the the seacocks in the boat is glassed into the hull at the entry point. The tube runs to just above the waterline with a gland above that (see pic) a SS rudder shaft runs through the bronze tube. The buildup of resin appears to be a strengthening attempt. The boat is in the water and this is the way it was originally built.

Originally Posted by Captsteve53

You dont say if you are in the water or dry?

That looks like a simple Galvanized pipe fitting? and not a marine approved gland packing

Either way eventually you need to remove whats there and do the job correctly, once all cleaned up and the new approved GLAND FITTING INSTALLED then it can be fiber-glassed back into place

Going over with GRP matt etc at present would only be a VERY temporary FIX!!

[Mercator30]

Thanks Steve for the link that is informative. I like the concept of my boats rudder tube, bringing the gland up above the water line. It is more about the structural integrity of the supporting "mass" that is questionable to me.

Originally Posted by Captsteve53

Have a look at this link regarding rudder stuffing box repair

Haulout 2016 Part 1: Replacing the rudder stuffing box hose and repacking rudder stuffing box – Life on Gudgeon

Cheers Steve

[Mercator30]

And those chuckles from the wisdom of a surveyor is what conjures up nightmares in the hearts of "hole in the water" stewards.
The boat although built over 4 decades by the prior owner who is not avail to ask details on the build, has been in the over for approx 10 years. She has been taken out just a handful of times.
The hull is of 60's vintage and is Rawson extremely overbuilt, extra thick. All seacocks are massively glassed into the hull (Yes I know current ABYC rules recommend bolted or screwed in support for seacocks). So I assume the rudder tube is of similar build (have not had the boat out of the water yet) massively glassed into the hull at its entry point.
My thought is there are pro's and con's to that style of build. It gives a solid border between the ocean and the inside of the boat with a bronze pipe glassed in that ends above the waterline. Future maintenance if the tube replacement is required will be more involved than a bolted through the hull gland.
As you and Steve point out not being able to see under the supporting resin is a problem and maybe the long term solution is to chip it all out when she is out of the water. Access is nice with the Rawson, I can slip inside a access hole and sit next to the rudder tube.
It seems that if the rudder tube entry and design are proper, the weakness if there is one is the interior support of the tube, in this case some resin compound to give lateral strength to the tube. The rudder shaft is supported by a bearing several inches above the tube as it exits. A question is how did Rawson provide support for the rudder at the bottom of the rudder tube?
A haulout next year should provide alot more information.

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

It is pictures like that rudder gland set up that make me shake my head as a marine surveyor. But then I always have a chuckle as I would love to know how long it has been like that? Obviously it has worked like that for a long time and if Michelangelo had of put a layer of glass over his bog sculpture it might not have cracked.
Realistically it should all be chipped away and properly repaired. Definitely a packing nut like the one in Steves link should be used as well. Not a big repair, just an awkward area to access.
Cheers

[Mercator30]

With further research on rudder tubes it seems that glassing them into the hull is standard procedure. Using a bronze tube is a strong build method. And running it above the waterline is excellent. What was done that I think should be corrected is instead of providing a support at the top of the rudder tube like a bracing beam, resin was built up around the tube (didnt measure but approx height of the tube inside the boat is maybe 15-18 inches) to provide additional support.
I still need to answer does a rudder tube that stands 15-18 inches inside the hull require structural support at its top if the rudder shaft is properly bearing?

[Fore and Aft]

If you are going to use a glass tube why not run it right through to the deck and cut it of flush? You could do that with a bronze tube as well?
Cheers

[Blue Stocking]

I replaced the rudder shaft tube on my C&C 31 Redwing with a glassed-in tube from hull to u/side of self-draining cockpit floor. Drilled 2 sets of holes, 120 degree radials at top and bottom of tube for sheet metal screws, the way glass globes are mounted on ceiling fans. Centred tube on shaft off boat with screws. re-assembled in sequence and glassed tube back into boat, then removed screws and filled holes. Eliminated packing gland.

[Mercator30]

Here is a pic of the rudder hydraulic linkage that mounts above the rudder tube that limits extending the tube.
This would limit my ability to extend the tube to deck level, otherwise would be a great solution.

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

If you are going to use a glass tube why not run it right through to the deck and cut it of flush? You could do that with a bronze tube as well?
Cheers

[Blue Stocking]

Originally Posted by Mercator30

Here is a pic of the rudder hydraulic linkage that mounts above the rudder tube that limits extending the tube.
This would limit my ability to extend the tube to deck level, otherwise would be a great solution.

Ah-ha !, I see

[Fore and Aft]

Thinking about this overnight I would remove all that bog mess back to the hull. Then bring the bronze tube back to bright metal and tightly wrap it with 6oz cloth in epoxy and let it cure. Then cut four plywood gussets/brackets (25mm thick with a big radius on the edge to be glassed over) that go at least halfway up the tube. You can hold these temporarily in place with hot glue from a hot glue gun. Cove it all then heavily glass it onto the tube with 450gm double bias. That should hold it. I have never glassed onto a bronze tube before, but I cannot see why epoxy would not stick well to it?
Cheers

[Mercator30]

Bronze adheres to epoxy and I like your idea, especially the 4 wood gussets. Simple plan to execute, substantial strength when completed.

Thank you...

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Thinking about this overnight I would remove all that bog mess back to the hull. Then bring the bronze tube back to bright metal and tightly wrap it with 6oz cloth in epoxy and let it cure. Then cut four plywood gussets/brackets (25mm thick with a big radius on the edge to be glassed over) that go at least halfway up the tube. You can hold these temporarily in place with hot glue from a hot glue gun. Cove it all then heavily glass it onto the tube with 450gm double bias. That should hold it. I have never glassed onto a bronze tube before, but I cannot see why epoxy would not stick well to it?
Cheers

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Thinking about this overnight I would remove all that bog mess back to the hull. Then bring the bronze tube back to bright metal and tightly wrap it with 6oz cloth in epoxy and let it cure. Then cut four plywood gussets/brackets (25mm thick with a big radius on the edge to be glassed over) that go at least halfway up the tube. You can hold these temporarily in place with hot glue from a hot glue gun. Cove it all then heavily glass it onto the tube with 450gm double bias. That should hold it. I have never glassed onto a bronze tube before, but I cannot see why epoxy would not stick well to it?
Cheers

This may work. Particularly if you follow the stanard proceedures for bonding to metals. Roughing it up VERY coarsly, then wet sanding the tube with epoxy. Followed by wrapping the tube with lots of fabric, something like a triaxial overtop of the light cloth. So that you're forming a composite tube overtop of the bronze one, since you don't know it's condition in terms of how thick it may be anymore.

Keep in mind too, that part of the reason for the roughing up of things is so that there's a mechanical surface for the resin & cloth to key into. Along with the fact that they shrink a tiny bit when they cure. So that done right, on metals like stainless for instance, they're locked together. And most of these types of proceedures are documented in the WEST System guides. Though the last time I called them, they were happy to help me with this sort of thing. Including what types of sandpaper to avoid, so as not to use the stuff which has chemicals in it that inhibit epoxy from bonding well to metal. Specifically, non-serate (sp?).

And were it me, I'd use some type of FRP plate for the gussets, frames, & knees. That way they're rot proof. You don't need G-10 per say, & can even lay up your own plate on a work top, for economy. Even using multiple thicknesses of 3mm plywood bonded together with epoxy, & plenty of triax on the top & bottom. So that again it's rot proof, by virtue of being fully saturated with epoxy. Which, with 3mm ply, it only takes a few tricks to achieve this, or come close to it being fully epoxy impregnated.