Manitu's project: Finessa 33

[barnakiel]

Ask around. I am not certain - my guess is that one can remove every second pair of bolts at one time.

b.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by manitu

It's about one hour to drive, two-three hours to sail.
But I think I'll replace the oak and replace/check the bolts.

The biggest problem now is the one hour drive from the boat to the bandsaw.. I wonder if I could remove two set of bolts a time to save time?
I guess removing half of the bolts at one time, then the other half of the bolts, would be to stretch my luck?

.manitu

Start with one rib, two bolts, from the center part. If that went well, you can do two ribs in one go: one on each side of the new one. I would not take it further. Try to rent the bandsaw !

ciao!
Nick.

[gjordan]

Manitu, when you replace the floor timbers make sure you put larger limber holes. From the photos, it appears that the limber holes are way to small or maybe nonexistant. Small limber holes clog very easy and allow sitting water to soak into any surrounding wood. That may explain your wet wood? Good Luck with the boat. It is nice looking.____Grant.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by manitu

I wish I could use all summer.. The problem is: the boat is sitting at the previous owners place. The plan was to make her somewhat seaworthy, then sail her across the bay and continue. I guess there is no way to finish the keel,and deal with the lumber later?

I guess I'll have to remove two bolts at a time to glass in a new ,non-wood reinforcement?

About the keel. The keel looks like it's completely glassed in. Is this neccesary? Is'nt a epoxy coating good enough?

Any suggestions?
.manitu

A non-wood reinforcement would certainly be wise. I would just drop the ballast keel, remove all floor timbers, fit new ones made out of 5 lb. ridgid urethane foam (airex), and then laminate heavily in place. I'd try for a laminate thickness of approx. 3/8" in this case. Reinstall the keel with steel bar for each pair of bolts on top of the floor timbers. This way it will never rot again, you won't have to worry about your keel bolts being encased in wet wood and thus crevice corroding, and it will actually be much faster to fit foam floors than to work in oak. Then you can also do stuff like get 2" glass tube and split it, then glass in place for limber holes. Or gelcoat your whole bilge so it stays clean. Probably total overkill for a boat of that size and cost, but that's how I would do it if it was mine. Would probably be much faster as well, the time it takes to drop and reinstall the keel will be made up by the time saved in laminating only once, and then you will also have a chance to rebed the keel when you torque the bolts, which is how it should be done in any case. It would also weigh substantially less than all those big blocks of oak. If you can't get a bandsaw nearby to fit either foam or oak try a dozuki. The right one will get the job done easily. JMHO.

[SkiprJohn]

The wood pieces you are looking at in the bilge are called floors. I see the glass around one is cracked. That means a lot of pressure was exerted there and under the glass is soft. I'd replace that one for certain. It doesn't mean that the others are bad. If they are wet with salt water its ok. If they are wet with freshwater they might not be ok. You have to drill into each one and look at the wood that's extracted. If the wood looks ok other than being wet it should be alright.
Only replace the ones that need to be replaced. If the keel bolts look ok from the outside it doesn't mean much. You have to pull a couple to see what it looks like all the way along its length.
The reason there was no filler where the keel bolts are is to allow access to the keel bolt nuts. An easily removable putty filler would be ok there but you don't want to glass them in just in case you want to remove them later.
Good luck in your repairs.
It looks like a great boat and I'd leave everything as it is for the first season you sail and see how she performs. Don't change anything other than do repairs. There is a good reason why boats are designed the way they are and many owners get carried away with changes and eventually wished that they'd left them the way they were.
kind regards,

[manitu]

Yes.. When we removed the glass on the timber , three of them were actually loose! I removed them , and the keel is still stuck to the hull.


I think I'll go for urethane reinforcements. Then it would be safe to use polyester resin instead of epoxy, would'nt it? I dont need the epoxy's penetration when there's no wood present, I guess.

The outside of the keel and the seam will get epoxy resin , I think it will stick to iron better than polyester.

Big day tomorrow! The first three new reinforcements is to be installed , and the rest of the old ones removed.

Thanks again for all input!

.manitu

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by manitu

The outside of the keel and the seam will get epoxy resin , I think it will stick to iron better than polyester.

It's tougher to keep the epoxy in the cast steel than you think. Clean it really well, then roll epoxy on and immediately get at it with a steel brush, brushing the wet epoxy "into" the steel. What you try to do is scrape the steel clean while rubbing epoxy on without any oxygen getting to it.

I would be worried about the compression force from the bolts on the foam-core laminate.... especially when the keel hits something. I'dd say put some extra roving layers on

cheers,
Nick.

[Aloha_float]

I was looking at the bilge area. Good pics. Why not use cardboard to template the members being replaced? Cut them from a hardwood and the treat the wood with a sealer? Perhaps a Fibreglass resin? I would then wrap them with Fibreglass cloth prior to fitting and installing.

They could all be on site and ground to fit as you replaced them. It would reduce your driving considerably.

Replace all the bolts with new stainless bolts but make sure you use a lubricant on the thread when installing so you do not burr them. Otherwise they may seize on.

I would love to see finished product when done. It's a beautiful boat.

I refit a boat a few years ago that had similar issues so I can relate. Keep the faith as his will take some time to complete.

Tim

[minaret]

Originally Posted by manitu

Yes.. When we removed the glass on the timber , three of them were actually loose! I removed them , and the keel is still stuck to the hull.


I think I'll go for urethane reinforcements. Then it would be safe to use polyester resin instead of epoxy, would'nt it? I dont need the epoxy's penetration when there's no wood present, I guess.

The outside of the keel and the seam will get epoxy resin , I think it will stick to iron better than polyester.

Big day tomorrow! The first three new reinforcements is to be installed , and the rest of the old ones removed.

Thanks again for all input!

.manitu

Yup, you're on the right track. Poly on the inside, epoxy on the outside. That way you can brush gelcoat on all your new glass in the bilge. Don't worry about compression on the laminate, it can take it, but do use a steel bar instead of washers to spread the load. If you are concerned with the foam go to a 10 lb. or even higher density foam. I prefer to stick with 5 lb. and use a slightly heavier laminate, because 5 lb. is ridiculously easy to fit and shape. Makes for a massive time savings, you can fit all of those floor timbers in foam in no time, whereas even an experienced shipwright will take quite awhile to fit them in wood. 10 lb. is fairly difficult to shape, 15 lb. is difficult to even machine. Remember you can also throw a few extra strips of roving just across the top of each floor. You might end up with 1/2" lam on the top, 3/8" on the sides, and a 1/4" tab tapered off of course. You can do the tab as part of the final layer of laminate, thus saving yourself some time on the tabbing as well as making a stronger part. Use a dozuki Ryoba instead of a bandsaw, you will fit them in no time. Ryoba is the spineless crosscut blade. Even on a bandsaw it is a difficult cut in wood, as it is a running bevel. Unless you have a shipsaw with a two man team it's difficult to cut running bevels well. You need at least a good bandsaw with a custom running bevel arm for this. I find it to be easier to do by hand with the dozuki in small timbers like these, but there is certainly a huge learning curve. Another great tool for shaping floor timber ends is an adze, but I won't get into that is they are hard to come by and difficult to master. I prefer the Portugeuse Enxo for this kind of work, as it is smaller and one-handed, therefore not requiring you to hold the work piece with your feet and cut off your toes in the traditional manner. One more good reason for foam, you can do it with a grinder then if you like I also like to make cuts in foam with a length of band saw blade with tape wrapped ends for handles, or with a hacksaw blade depending on length needed. And since you will be making your block of foam by laminating sheet stock together with spray adhesive, you can also fit each piece of sheet stock before laminating the block, essentially laminating it in place. This also makes fitting go much faster in some cases. And a perfect fit is not essential as the laminate will be transferring the loads, unlike wood timbers where you really want a great fit. Good luck!

[s/v Jedi]

I'm all for the Dozuki. An old Portuguese/Brazilian shipwright in Grenada (Keith, anybody know him?) taught me how to use one and it took me some time... you pull instead of push.

cheers,
Nick.

[SkiprJohn]

I don't agree that stainless is the best for those bolts. If the ones that you pull are stainless then ok but if it were me I'd use the same bolts that came out if they have no significant deterioration.
kind regards,

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by SkiprJohn

I don't agree that stainless is the best for those bolts. If the ones that you pull are stainless then ok but if it were me I'd use the same bolts that came out if they have no significant deterioration.
kind regards,

You mean use the same ones that came out when they are Monel or bronze? Or even when they are stainless?

cheers,
Nick.

[barnakiel]

I can see the point on various metals. There indeed may be better materials for this job than SS. Some research online will probably find these out.

However, I would replace the bolts if any deterioration found.

b.

[manitu]

Hi again.. Today's plan went south in a hurry, we used all day shopping for resin, glass and polyurethane. We did manage to clean the bilge and started to remove the gelcoat. the fibreglass looks good , allmost no water stains.

I ended up with low density polyurethane. To shape it, I was told to cut the piece, then put sandpaper on the bilge , and just rub the poly piece against the sandpaper until it fits. The poly is half an inch thick, so I'll need about six pieces under the bolts.

I plan to soak the pieces in polyester to make one solid block. I don't know if it's necessary, but it can't hurt , can it?

One other thing I was convinced to use a vinylester primer on the keel , then polyester , not epoxy. What do you guys think?

No pictures today , night came too quick.

.manitu

[minaret]

Originally Posted by manitu

Hi again.. Today's plan went south in a hurry, we used all day shopping for resin, glass and polyurethane. We did manage to clean the bilge and started to remove the gelcoat. the fibreglass looks good , allmost no water stains.

I ended up with low density polyurethane. To shape it, I was told to cut the piece, then put sandpaper on the bilge , and just rub the poly piece against the sandpaper until it fits. The poly is half an inch thick, so I'll need about six pieces under the bolts.

I plan to soak the pieces in polyester to make one solid block. I don't know if it's necessary, but it can't hurt , can it?

One other thing I was convinced to use a vinylester primer on the keel , then polyester , not epoxy. What do you guys think?

No pictures today , night came too quick.

.manitu

I think you may find the sand to fit technique won't work here. It's a great technique for fitting foam when only one end is involved, but in this case both ends are captured. Try to envision how this will work and consider the aft most timber as the most extreme example of the problem. The angle involved means you will only be able to approach the sanding from one side, making it very difficult to get a good fast fit this way. Try it and you will immediately see what I'm talking about. It's generally faster to cut to fit. Don't resin soak the foam timbers until you begin laminating them or you will have to sand them quite a bit before laminating, and your entire layup will be bonded to a brittle resin layer. Much better to layup directly on dry foam. Don't forget to take into account the added height of the laminate, or your floor timber height may not end up the same, which could cause problems if anything fits onto them. I like to do layups like this old-fashioned style in WR and matt, no DB. The reason is that you can generally do the whole layup in WR with no relief cuts if you are an experienced laminator who is not afraid to get his hands in the layup. I feel this gives a much stronger laminate than DB due to fiber continuity. DB is obviously superior on a relatively flat surface, but when you have a lot of geometry like this I feel WR is superior for that reason. Keep it up, you're moving along! Be done in no time...