Hurricane Damaged Boats Available

[Cavalier MK2]

So weren't the boats that didn't get flooded the ones that were stacked 3 deep on shore in the pile up? It seems the sensible buyer should be able to get the insurance photos for every boat offered to verify its post hurricane landing spot.

Equally obvious these guys haven't bought any boats themselves but have done what anyone can do and chase down the availabilities. That is why the rush, the other do it yourselfers are there checking the same things out.

[taxwizz]

Originally Posted by Rush.p

This screams scam to me!!

I agree.
Very little information.
Lots of "Send us a cheque".

Very arrogant.

[contrail]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

This is a perfectly good business plan, but it does require buyer's involvement and due diligence to get to know the OP and his groups capabilities.

OP states, insurance write off boats with no hull damage, no flooding so odds are mostly beaching and dismastings when the docks failed.

I would proceed as follows

Detailed assessment of damages by the Owner or his representative.

Research on the availability of replacement and price of salvaged parts from other same model boats

I can see a great opportunity for local cruisers to get involved in this "Phoenix" model as salvagers and Owner's Rep to piece together a solid rebuild with no structural defects but obviously less than factory finish.

I would structure the deal as ("Time and Materials, But Not To Exceed"), once you have been there and done your due diligence.

Hopefully this will also help existing technical cruisers in the area to rebuild their Kitty, by getting them involved in finding the salvaged parts.

Whilst there were many, many dismastings, there were very few beachings of the type you are referring to. Just not relevant to where the boats were located, prior to the storm. The two places for "beachings" would be Paraquita Bay and Trellis Bay. Paraquita is where many charter boats (and a few others) are stored for hurricane season, in a quite organized way; it's been an effective hurricane hole for many hurricanes but it was overwhelmed by Irma. Many or the pictures of boats piled on one another are from Paraquita. Hard to imagine many boats without hull damage there. The other place is Trellis Bay, where every single moored or anchored boat finished on the sandy beach. But, I don't think any were charter boats....it's generally populated by a local liveaboard community, so these won't be the boats referred to. I am still baffled as to where these boats with no hull damage or sinking are located.

With regard to parts, that's a tough one. A major problem is what to do with totaled boats and where to do it. There just isn't much room and totaled boats are likely to have a very short lifespan between when they are declared totaled and the owners paid off, and when they are crushed. There is an Irma debris removal committee and the challenges are great with the solutions not tilted towards cruisers roaming around scavenging parts. The government is very determined not to have the type of shoreline debris found on many other Caribbean islands, after hurricanes, so it won't be a case of boats lying around for people to pick over. I have been very proactive in identifying some parts useful specifically to my boat and have contacted both the owners and the insurer, but a lot of luck was involved. Even parts with obvious value, such as winches or windlasses will most likely wind up being disposed of with the boats, unfortunately. Just not enough space and time and too many boats. If you are going to get into the informal salvage business, make your plans very thoroughly, check on permits and cross your fingers.There will probably wind up being one "salvage" yard at East End, but stuff won't stay there for long, if it's been totalled.

[Pelagic]

Thanks for the report Contrail.
No substitute for being there and should be the first action for someone considering the Op's offer.

I cannot imagine the wrecks to NOT be stripped of the reuseable and expensive fixtures before disposable.

Whoever is awarded the contract by the governments Receiver of Wrecks to do that, (probably compensated by the insurance companies) will have a crane/flat barge/tug asset to take to a disposal ground.

The salvage parts are the cream on cream and as you say will be consolidated in one area, as well as a black market business.

Things tend not to get wasted on small island Nations

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by captlloyd

Wow ! The skeptics are out in force today !! The mind is like a parachute, it must be open to function.

Some serious RED FLAGS:
- There are thousands of boats but buy now or else...
- Cash only
- We aren't willing to share what boats are available.
- We give outrageous numbers (ie: $90k purchase, $250k refit for a boat worth $900k...of course, if that was true, they would leave $550k to the buyer? They could repair it themselves and sell for $700-800k very quickly making far more money for less effort).
- If the boat damage is only 20-30% of the value, insurance doesn't typically total the boat.
- No info about their experience doing such work.
- No guarantee regarding workmanship or pricing of work (upper limits?)
- Everything is happening in another country
- Explains it by not wanting to get into debates regarding why it's not a scam.
- Mysterious assistant experienced in mega yacht refitting.
- Gets angry when people question the red flags rather than addressing them with facts.

It's possible the deal is legitimate. It's also possible he's just in over his head but everything I've read screams scam.

[friz]

Ah, another once in a lifetime opportunity.
At this time of life I no longer do urgent. I am leery of those who urge me to, so this comes to mind....
"ya got trouble, folks right here in river city
trouble with a capital T and that rhymes with P and that stands for pool".

[Saleen411]

I think Contrail has done a great job explaining some of the issues and putting things in perspective.

A VERY knowledgable "Contrail" has not raised the BS flag or screamed "scam". There very well be some current post hurricane opportunities for some and there very well be more in the near future as things settle out. I don't think we should create an environment here where people with creative ideas will not post for fear of attack. Why not give the OP the benefit of the doubt as his endeavors are vetted.

YES, what has been proposed may not be viable, or even a good idea for many, however, I do believe the OP mentioned that this project may not even get off the ground. This doesn't necessarily scream SCAM to me. I say give the guy a break. JMHO

[Tetepare]

The business plan is sound, the implementation remains to be tested.

Look at it this way: there ARE a load of restorable catamarans there. The insurance companies have to pay the owners (probably done by now) and have to recover cash ASAP, meaning they aren't going to rebuild and try to resell the boats- so somebody else is going to.

Figure that OP and his marine buddies can repair the boats, but they don't have the cash in hand to finance the operation. Thus, they need an influx of cash to get up and running. By OP's offer, no doubt they'll also get a cut of the sale, since they're acting as a broker.

As I said before, if you want something go there and get it from the source. I would. Buyers will have to pay for the damaged boat, then source parts, arrange for restoration, and should sit there and watch it be done (I would). OP is taking over all that hassle in exchange for more of your cash.

The thing I'd be concerned with is the quality of the restoration. Time is money, so the quicker more boats are completed, the more money is made. And fiberglass and paint can cover a quick "fix" as opposed to a structurally sound repair.

Of course, there must be boats that can be repaired, with the cost and level of structural damage varying. Do you want to trust somebody else to make that decision? Certainly the best boats are going to sell first.

If anyone has a half mil for a catamaran, what's the problem with going down there and selecting one? Then you can contract with OP or somebody else for the restoration.

[contrail]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

The business plan is sound, the implementation remains to be tested.

Look at it this way: there ARE a load of restorable catamarans there. The insurance companies have to pay the owners (probably done by now) and have to recover cash ASAP, meaning they aren't going to rebuild and try to resell the boats- so somebody else is going to.

Figure that OP and his marine buddies can repair the boats, but they don't have the cash in hand to finance the operation. Thus, they need an influx of cash to get up and running. By OP's offer, no doubt they'll also get a cut of the sale, since they're acting as a broker.

As I said before, if you want something go there and get it from the source. I would. Buyers will have to pay for the damaged boat, then source parts, arrange for restoration, and should sit there and watch it be done (I would). OP is taking over all that hassle in exchange for more of your cash.

The thing I'd be concerned with is the quality of the restoration. Time is money, so the quicker more boats are completed, the more money is made. And fiberglass and paint can cover a quick "fix" as opposed to a structurally sound repair.

Of course, there must be boats that can be repaired, with the cost and level of structural damage varying. Do you want to trust somebody else to make that decision? Certainly the best boats are going to sell first.

If anyone has a half mil for a catamaran, what's the problem with going down there and selecting one? Then you can contract with OP or somebody else for the restoration.

What may be a little different from the norm is the extent of damage and that almost no one has been paid, yet. The volume of damage has been paralyzing, on many levels. One surveying firm I know has a list of 800 boats, both charter and private. Surveyors have flown in from all over the world to help. Even from as far away as Australia. Hardly any boats were left totally undamaged.The process is: a preliminary survey which may determine if the boat is a Constructive Total Loss, or not. If it has been underwater for a considerable time, it almost certainly is a CTL. There are still boats underwater, by the way, due to limited barges, cranes, and room ashore to place the wrecks. Many are lifted, patched, the placed back in the water. The second step is a follow up survey when the boat is back ashore....in the one yard that can handle any of this. The other yard is still in a state of, let's say, shock, and hasn't hauled a boat. Some owners have been given a partial payment to start work, but not many. I have not, and I have worked hard to be near the first in line for filing a claim, survey, haul-out, estimates, etc. etc. Some others have been paid for their CTL's, but these will have been boats that were totally destroyed or sunk, but with the wreck's found. Some others, stored ashore, are also CTL's. But, the underwriter does not assume ownership of boats until payment has been made, and that's going slowly. It's delayed many things, including righting monohulls stored ashore. And, surveyors are careful not to take foolish risks involved with inspecting interiors of many boats that are laid over. Masts and rigging are intertwined, making it all harder.

All of this said, everyone, including some who have been brought in from off island, are working very hard to get things done. Nanny Cay deserves an incredible hand for the work they have done. But, the many obstacles make it slow going, and the lack of payment, as yet, from underwriters, deprives the area of the grease to get things moving. I talked to one of the main insurers (not mine) a week ago and he pointed out that the funds required are much greater than any of the companies have on hand. Therefore, they are turning to their re-insuring companies, as would be expected. But the amounts are so great that nothing happens until the top of the food chain, the reinsurers, disburse their funds, after which they work their way down to the eventual payee, the insured owner. My contact says that payment will take about a month after a boat is declared a CTL. No one's fault, just an unprecedented disaster in the yachting world.

The flip side is that when payments start being made, everyone will want the services of the various repair facilities. There will be a huge demand, no only here and on nearby islands, but further away. Arrangement are being made to transport boats to places like Grenada, and to the US and even Europe. There is just so much destruction.

But not much of this can be done on the funds available in individuals' pockets. It will take payment by insurers and that hasn't happened yet, for the vast majority.

When things start moving, and boats are given their follow up surveys to determine if they are CTL's, those that are will usually be offered first to their former owners. I suppose that if a suitable wreck can be located and the owner contacted, prior to the insurance company offering the boat back to the owner, something could be worked out whereby the owner flips the boat to someone else. This seems where an opportunity might exist, but you would have to have a very good sense for the cost of repairing that particular boat. If a boat is not bought back, there will be a very short window for something to be done with the wreck, and that's another place where an opportunity will exist. But the window is short. The underwriters don't want to take on disposal costs, so will make good deals, but they don't want to be on the hook for storage, either, even assuming there is a space for storage. There is a plan to create a yard at East End, which would be able to handle some CTL's as well as other boats hauled for repair. They will get there by barge. This plan is viable but inevitably has a way to go for implementation. The CTLs will be dumped in an unsecured part of the yard, for disposal by breaking up and crushing. The other alternative, and the only one that is currently operating, is to barge them to a place called Pockwood Pond, not coincidentally the location of our dump and incinerator. Boats can be offloaded there for immediate crushing, with a front end loader, and disposed of. Plans have been discussed whereby some of the debris can be used in making aggregate for roads. There have been conversations with some locations, off-island, including in the US, who have expressed an interest and willingness to accept the crushed debris. What the government, specifically the Ministry of Labour and Natural Resources, is very keen NOT to let happen is for there to be any accumulation of wrecks, whether singly abandoned on beaches, or gathered together by salvors. Along the way, there will be opportunities for some bits and pieces. As I have said, I have already located a few useful bits and done the spadework for getting them. But, the windows in time will be very short and the opportunities greatest for those here, on the ground, and well connected to the various sectors of the marine industry.

This is a somewhat unique place. It has a very well developed marine and charter industry. It is not poor, with a higher per capita income than the UK.Of course, so is the cost of living! It general, it places value on its environment, at least insofar as it affects the crucial tourist sector of the economy, which is the largest employer. There are wealthy people with large investments onshore - villas and so forth - and a few very, very wealthy people (billionaires, to be precise) who are helpful when it comes to protecting the environment and ambiance and funding some of the necessary efforts to protect both.

Unlike somewhere like Houston, that has the other 95% of the US there to finance a recovery, the BVI was totally flattened. But, there are resources and a very resourceful private sector, so much so that, with everyone pitching in, we are way ahead of where a first world country, burdened with huge bureaucracies and over-regulation, would be. Some societies believe that government should do most everything, and others believe that government should do nothing. It's the old debate. It has been very instructive to watch as the BVI seems to have found the sweet spot between these points of view, on its road back to recovery. Makes one glad to be here, even though it's pretty tough sledding, at the moment. But, the BVI really will be back, strong as ever, and lovely as ever to visit and to sail. And that's something to be thankful for.

But, it all means you will have to be on the ball to find a salvage opportunity. And, on that note, I think I have said enough and will let others debate the issues, while I get back to work on my boat. Good luck, all, but realize that wrecks will not be lying around indefinitely.

[LLizzard]

Let those interested contact the OP and determine if its legit and the plan executable. The rest here is just conjecture.

[vann cochran]

Me too

[SURV69]

These boats will be a "bargain", but not a "steal".

How does an entrepeneur sell and repair this number of boats without heavy backing?

Everything sounds jake to me .... that is, it "could", be a scam, but the model makes sense.

NO ONE ... ABSOLUTELY NO ONE, is, after all is said and done, going to get a boat for $10,000.

The boat, as is, might cost $10,000, or $50,000, but the "refit", will be part opf the bargain and ALL COSTS, otherwise attributed to this boat will also have to be paid.

This is kinda like the chance of a lifetime .... until the next big hurricane comes to town.

This is really a deal for someone with money, who wants to also save money .... most of the posters here would not be able to pay the needed money.

People with the kinds of money needed, can either fly out to view the boat or hire a local surveyor to report on the boat. For that matter, for the kind of savings that "can" be made, a person who can buy one of these boats, can hire a person to oversee the process and progress.

This is totally out of my league... find me a trashed 1980 33 foot monohull, that I can work on myself, at a working marina in South Carolina.

[captlloyd]

Originally Posted by LLizzard

Let those interested contact the OP and determine if its legit and the plan executable. The rest here is just conjecture.

X2. Some of these folks are going to hit the ground with their parachutes still in the pack.

[SouthernPride]

I think Rush hit it on the head...SCAM...

[watermanmax]

Hey rourkeh,
I wont say this is a scam....I mean it could almost sound like it....or.....as a business owner myself...you don't want to take any s**t from long winded people looking for a Lagoon for 10 bucks. But.....the wife and I were going to do a final inspection on a Lagoon 41' in October......Now we are still looking. but you do have to help us out a little more. Just looked at a FP in Nassau last Friday....(not interested) so you may have something we really want. but unless I see pictures, price list and estimates....kind of hard to fork over 10-80 grand. SOOoooooooo.....We are looking for a Lagoon above a 38 footer any kind of cabin layout and newer than 2002. if ya got something like that....let me know.