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Old 26-07-2021, 13:02   #16
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Re: Feasibility of electric oven/microwave

Very doable and sustainable.

Solar, LiFeYPO4 batteries, inverter, generator as backup and for quick recharge.

What do you do in a power outage on land, are you starving then? You run a generator, eat something that doesnt need the oven or start the BBQ. Same on board. There are enough backup options.


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Old 26-07-2021, 15:08   #17
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Re: Feasibility of electric oven/microwave

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
What about the “it can’t break” aspect of propane at least for the cooktop?

It’s some hoses and a valve. You’re still cooking even if the inverter dies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatNewBee View Post
Very doable and sustainable.

What do you do in a power outage on land, are you starving then? You run a generator, eat something that doesnt need the oven or start the BBQ. Same on board. There are enough backup options.
It's true propane stoves are generally Simple. I just rebuilt My 40y stove, its an old mariner stove, wasn't a high end unit, parts aren't nessesarily available. Insulation is far better, but the stove mostly works. The oven doesn't work well. Maybe if I took it in to an appliance place they can do a full service valve cleaning and get things in better working order. I think it's probably better to replace it at this point.

The three biggest problems I see with propane is 1.) the explosive nature, of which there are numerous safeguards and workarounds. 2.) The moisture content in colder weather - I'm Alaskan and plan on cruising the colder locales on occasion. 3.) The more critical, is the lack of availability of propane in many areas. Even in Alaska propane can be difficult, it's available everywhere tourism and sportsmen are, however that isn't nessesarily close to the coast where the commercial boys use more diesel. Propane has to be shipped, but you can always find diesel in even the most rural or remote areas. In a pinch depending on the engine or equipment you can use jetA, JP5, JP8, kerosene, heater oil ect. Technically the old mechanical diesels I'm most of out boats would even eat up veggie oil with out too many issues.

I do believe I will keep a propane BBQ grill around for a while, but that isn't as affected by 1 or 2 as much, as it's outside and over the water, and isn't used as much so better on gas. If I didn't have another option I would eventually get a new Dickinson propane stove for $2700.

I think I prefer diesel, as it uses the same fuel as the boat, can literally be found anywhere, and sucks the moisture out, however It heats up slower, adds heat to the cabin (some units), and not a lot of gimbled options. Not as popular in the US so it's mostly Nordic and euro models, which are smaller, or giant fixed commercial fishing models that heat up the boat.

I didn't think about the BBQ as a backup but your correct. I Also have a little camping stove. You can get a portable single burner gimbled stove as well. Gives that redundancy. Honestly at home if power goes out I'll probably go out to eat. Which isn't always possible out cruising.

I prefer some redundancy. Have a habit of overbuilding and over complicating things. Maybe not needed, but it makes me feel better. I think I found a solution. A two burner diesel ceramic cooktop and a 2 burner induction cooktop next to it. The two next to each other are very close to the original stove size. The diesel 2 burners don't nessesarily heat up the room, they are not really a two burner it's more a 1 burner with a pot warmer. same fuel as the boat, and gives me options. I'd have to make a gimbled cabinet but that doesn't seem too difficult. Use a house style combo wall convection oven, microwave, air fryer. Sounds like an electric bread maker, electric kettle, and instant pot maybe more useful and efficient.

Thank everyone for their actual use cases. Boat systems are changing so I think this is critical information. I currently have a 3kw victron inverter and upgrading my electrical system with lithium, solar ect. So I will be able to switch to electric, just wondering if I should or what actual real life useage is. I'm surprised that there are a lot of posts with all electric for much longer than I thought was feasible.
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Old 26-07-2021, 21:11   #18
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Re: Feasibility of electric oven/microwave

Quote:
Originally Posted by NPCampbell View Post
A microwave is about 50% efficient in boiling water. It's less efficient with food that has low moisture content.

An electric stovetop is about 70%.

An induction oven is 85%.

Propane burns efficiently but when used to boil water in a pot, most of the heat escapes from around the pot. Propane is around 40% efficient at boiling water but the energy density is so high that sometimes the convenience of carrying propane is worth it.

Personally, if I had enough solar and battery, I'd have both a microwave and induction cooktop and wouldn't use a fuel burning stove.

Water boiling efficiency
I read the thru the testing they did on the website. It was sloppy.
Also they used incorrect terminology which reduced their credibility even more (induction does not need magnetic cookware, I'm not even sure there is such a thing. Of course plenty of manufacturers and writers get it wrong too so maybe they are just copying bad info they read on the internet or misinterpreting good info. Of course this is becoming a little circular because I am posting this on the internet and it seems likely somebody will read this and misinterpret. OK, enough with the metaphysics.
Induction cooking needs ferromagnetic cookware, that is cookware made from certain types of iron and/or nickel alloys plus a few other elements your really don't want in contact with something you will consume. Some forms of stainless are ferromagnetic and some are not.
As far as I know there is no such thing as a induction oven, I assume you meant convection.

I did the same testing with a butane catering stove, an induction burner and my kitchen microwave about 18mo ago. I did not test a resistive coil burner because I did not want to pay for something I would not otherwise need when by inspection I knew it would be less efficient than an induction burner.

I weighed the water in each test to the nearest gram, and checked initial and final temps. I usually terminated heating at about 90C, I wanted to know efficiency and once significant amounts of steam started coming off the numbers would become suspect due to differing amounts of steam escaping.
I used a power meter to measure electrical consumption for the microwave and induction burner and weighed the butane stove to the nearest gram before and after to determine how much fuel was used.

Microwave was 46% efficient,
Butane was 50%
Induction was 76%

The first photo below is the data I got from testing and plus intermediate steps to get to efficiencies.
The second graphic is a table relating propane tank size, how long it typically lasts you to daily electricity needed to replace that propane.

I would like to test an electric tea kettle but haven't, again because I don't want to pay for something I don't normally use. I expect the tea kettle to be in the vicinity of 90% efficiency. With an insulated pot the losses are going to be a small amount of heat lost to the environment despite the insulation and the energy it takes to heat the mass of the teapot itself. Eventually I will find one to borrow.

I am gearing up to test a convection and a propane oven and am trying to figure out the protocol. Propane needs to be well vented so the burner doesn't choke on its waste gases so I am expecting the relative efficiencies of propane vs convection to be similar.

Just for fun I tested the electrical consumption of my bread maker making a 2lb loaf: 330Whr.

Lastly here are a bunch of links to other threads where this topic has been discussed at length:
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...op-221002.html
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...or-215594.html
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ng-234419.html
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...er-243396.html
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...se-238878.html
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Old 27-07-2021, 08:37   #19
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Re: Feasibility of electric oven/microwave

Induction cooktops use eddy currents induced into the bottom of the cookware. Any conductive material can be used for this. But to focus the energy and make it really efficient, a ferromagnetic core, like iron can keep the energy transmission more focussed. That is why induction cookware has at least an iron core in the bottom. You also can use an iron plate between regular cookware and the hob to achieve similar results.

Btw, Aluminium cookware is unhealthy, iron pots are heavy, but much less health threatening.

Some refer to magnetic cookware. Well if induction is not on the label, you can test with a magnet if the cookware is suitable for induction cooking. The pots are not magnetic themselves.
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Old 27-07-2021, 09:28   #20
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Re: Feasibility of electric oven/microwave

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
I read the thru the testing they did on the website. It was sloppy.
Also they used incorrect terminology which reduced their credibility even more (induction does not need magnetic cookware, I'm not even sure there is such a thing. Of course plenty of manufacturers and writers get it wrong too so maybe they are just copying bad info they read on the internet or misinterpreting good info. Of course this is becoming a little circular because I am posting this on the internet and it seems likely somebody will read this and misinterpret. OK, enough with the metaphysics.
Induction cooking needs ferromagnetic cookware, that is cookware made from certain types of iron and/or nickel alloys plus a few other elements your really don't want in contact with something you will consume. Some forms of stainless are ferromagnetic and some are not.
I'm not sure what you are getting at. You say there's no such thing as magnetic cookware and then you say it needs ferromagnetic cookware?

Induction doesn't work unless some part of the cooking vessel is magnetic.
Does a magnet stick to it to some degree? Yes? Then it works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
As far as I know there is no such thing as a induction oven, I assume you meant convection.
Yup, I meant induction stove.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
I did the same testing with a butane catering stove, an induction burner and my kitchen microwave about 18mo ago. I did not test a resistive coil burner because I did not want to pay for something I would not otherwise need when by inspection I knew it would be less efficient than an induction burner.

I weighed the water in each test to the nearest gram, and checked initial and final temps. I usually terminated heating at about 90C, I wanted to know efficiency and once significant amounts of steam started coming off the numbers would become suspect due to differing amounts of steam escaping.
I used a power meter to measure electrical consumption for the microwave and induction burner and weighed the butane stove to the nearest gram before and after to determine how much fuel was used.

Microwave was 46% efficient,
Butane was 50%
Induction was 76%
Great test. I'm curious if your pot was covered and what was your pot made of? Stainless is a poor conductor of heat ...
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Old 27-07-2021, 09:45   #21
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Re: Feasibility of electric oven/microwave

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The three biggest problems I see with propane is 1.) the explosive nature, of which there are numerous safeguards and workarounds. 2.) The moisture content in colder weather - I'm Alaskan and plan on cruising the colder locales on occasion. 3.) The more critical, is the lack of availability of propane in many areas.
Also ...

4) Propane isn't just explosive, it's a heavier than air asphyxiant.
5) In some parts of the world you'll find LPG, but it won't be propane. It will be either butane or isobutane or a mix. All 3 LPGs have different vapor pressures which require different regulators and orifices.
6) There is no global standard on fittings. Jumping from country to country may require a set of adapters.
7) A few countries won't allow you to refill your bottle. You'll have to manually decant between bottles in that case.
8) Butane doesn't work below freezing. You'll have to warm the bottle above freezing to use it.
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Old 27-07-2021, 10:18   #22
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Re: Feasibility of electric oven/microwave

Quote:
Originally Posted by NPCampbell View Post
I'm not sure what you are getting at. You say there's no such thing as magnetic cookware and then you say it needs ferromagnetic cookware?

Induction doesn't work unless some part of the cooking vessel is magnetic.
Does a magnet stick to it to some degree? Yes? Then it works.


Yup, I meant induction stove.



Great test. I'm curious if your pot was covered and what was your pot made of? Stainless is a poor conductor of heat ...


Something that is magnetic will be attracted to iron or other ferro-magnetic materials.

Something that is ferro-magnetic will attract a magnet.

2 magnets will attract or repel each other if oriented properly.

2 items that are ferro-magnetic will sit placidly next to each other admiring the scenery but neither attracting nor repelling each other.

If your cookware is not attracted to something that is iron, it is not magnetic but it may be ferro-magnetic.


I bought an induction teapot which I used on both the induction and propane burners. I maximized the water to reduce the relative scale of errors. I got a small plastic or ceramic teapot for the microwave, I forget the material. Initially I was going to listen for whistling to signal end of test but realized that I’d be losing uncontrolled amounts of mass and energy as steam so I switched to 90C termination point to limit that. By that time I’d already paid for everything.

At some point I’m going to redo the butane stove test with a regular copper bottom teapot I have to see if it makes a difference. Changing pots is an issue because it changes the secondary mass that needs to also be heated and skews the relative percentages. I may paint the bottom of the induction teapot black and see what effect that has on the butane stove efficiency.
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Old 27-07-2021, 10:44   #23
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Re: Feasibility of electric oven/microwave

Something that is ferro-magnetic can be magnetized by exposure to a strong magnetic field.

So all permanent magnets are ferro-magnetic but not all ferro-magnetic items are magnetized.
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Old 06-08-2021, 07:03   #24
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Re: Feasibility of electric oven/microwave

We live aboard in S Florida, Keys, Bahamas each November through May. We try to spend as much time off dock (anchored or on mooring ball) as possible. Our 30 year old propane fueled Force 10 stove/oven died last winter. We didn't love the Force 10 oven. Slow to heat & inconsistent in Maintaining temp. We typically use burner top 1 to 3 times per day. We use oven/broiler 1 to 3 times per week. We opted to replace the unit with a 3 burner Force 10 propane burner top. We replaced the oven function with a (10 function) Ninja Foodie convection oven. At dock the Foodie runs off shore power. Off dock we use our NexGen 3.5 kw diesel generator. We didn’t want to run the generator multiple times per day so propane made more sense for burner top. We had custom quartz countertop made up to hold the new burner top. We have been very happy with the results.
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Old 06-08-2021, 07:22   #25
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Re: Feasibility of electric oven/microwave

Not sure if this will work. If it does, following is picture of our new setup on Her Diamond

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0U83...t_Store_Marina
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Old 06-08-2021, 08:07   #26
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Re: Feasibility of electric oven/microwave

Lots of boats are going to all electric. Check out Sailing Delvos and Gone with the Wynns on youtube. However, AGM's can't really supply that many amps so fast. You really need Lithium Ion batteries, and you are going to need a big recharging system. Solar is the most economical. However, you have to sail in places where there is lots of sun - between the tropics is best. And, have a generator for those times when it isn't enough. I have a combination with propane stove/oven plus a microwave. I have about 950 W of solar panels and a mixed AGM/LiPO4 battery bank with 400 AH of each. Truthfully, the bulk of our cooking is done with propane. I would want to add more solar and a couple of wind generators plus a bigger battery bank if I was to go all electric.

If you just sail in the USA, it is really convenient to use the propane bottle exchanges that you find at 7-11, Home Depot, Ect. However, if you start cruising to other countries, you quickly run into problems with valve compatibility. It can be a real hassle and expensive. I have ended up throwing away perfectly good propane bottles because the country of the day can not fill them. So, I have to re-plumb my system to work with that country's bottles. Then when you go to the next country, the problem re-occurs. There are 58 different types of cooking gas valves in the world. It would be great to eliminate this problem. Check it out - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propan...ve_connections
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Old 06-08-2021, 09:00   #27
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Re: Feasibility of electric oven/microwave

I use a convection oven/grill/microwave. I prefer gas for the three burner hob. I genny is less than 4kw. The oven is a semi commercial grade unit from Panasonic. I also have another at home.
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Old 06-08-2021, 10:44   #28
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Re: Feasibility of electric oven/microwave

Induction works as long as you have the electrical system to support it.
But special pans are needed and induction ovens really aren't a thing.
What happens if your induction unit dies? You likely can't fix it.



Propane wins when it comes to simplicity. If you have gas, it generally works. The exchangeable cylinders are a boon. If you are going overseas, propane gets more difficult. But then so does everything else. But still really, really simple. What is simpler than a propane stove? Not much.

Simple wins in my book.
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Old 06-08-2021, 15:22   #29
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Re: Feasibility of electric oven/microwave

We removed our old Princess and replaced it with a glass cooktop and a Sharp Microwave/Convection oven. Works great for us.
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Old 06-08-2021, 18:39   #30
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Re: Feasibility of electric oven/microwave

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Originally Posted by Dave9111 View Post
Induction works as long as you have the electrical system to support it.
But special pans are needed and induction ovens really aren't a thing.
What happens if your induction unit dies? You likely can't fix it.



Propane wins when it comes to simplicity. If you have gas, it generally works. The exchangeable cylinders are a boon. If you are going overseas, propane gets more difficult. But then so does everything else. But still really, really simple. What is simpler than a propane stove? Not much.

Simple wins in my book.
When the induction unit dies, we would use the oven. Or the grill. Btw, never happened yet, neither home on land nor home on the water.

When the propane unit dies, you may not notice it when you join her.
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