Seized Perkins 4107 strange behaviour.

[FionaJC]

I have a seized 4107 diesel engine. It did get submerged and filled with seawater through the dipstick. I removed all the water changed the oil twice and ran it for around 30 minutes. I left it for around two years due to health issues and its now seized. I have removed the starter motor and tested it and its fine. the water pump also rotates.

I think it seized as the waterlock had water in it and the exhaust valve for cylinder No1 is open.

I have pulled the four injectors and over a period of a fortnight I have poured warmed diesel into it.

The odd behavior is that after a fortnight cylinder 1 still is full of diesel. If I top up the other three cylinders then No3 goes down in 10 minutes No 4 takes about 20 minutes and No 2 just drops a bit in 2 hours.
head..jpg Views: 182 Size: 104.7 KB ID: 223363" style="margin: 2px" />
I cant get a camera into look as there are caps in the head where the injectors sit. See my photo.

I have today put an impact driver on the crankshaft pulley and it has done nothing. I have also put a 1-1/2 socket on there with a breaker bar and a four foot scaffold tube. It started to turn but it was a 12point socket and I think its burring the nut.

My questions are; 1. Is No1 the only seized cylinder? 2. Why does no3 drain so quickly has a ring has gone on No3? The sump is full of diesel and oil now. 3. Is the next stage to remove the head and look at the cylinders?The engine did consume oil but I think it leaked from the rocker cover. 4. Can the engine be OK but the TMP gearbox be seized instead? 5. Can rings be replaced without taking the engine out? (I suspect not)

The problem is that my boat is on a pontoon and I did an engine change 5 years ago, and it wasn't cheap or nice. I fancy if its a ring then its an engine re-build but the engine has never smoked although it did run hot and oil pressure was higher than I would expect.

I have attached a picture of a typical head from underneath for clarity.

[S/V Adeline]

How much fuel is in the no.1 cylinder? Is it possible to remove it and fill the cylinder with a higher quality penatrating oil?
My initial guess would be 2 and 1 are both seized, diesel is thinner that any oil i would choose to fill the cylinders with, but penatrating oil is much thinner and will work into the seized pistons and rings faster. *if that is the issue*
You didn't mention if the tranny was flushed and refilled after the dunk, that is how I killed ours, I refilled with incorrect oil
If the tranny was filled with water, your problem could be there.

[Chayal]

Ive had success in the past breaking engines loose with MMO. It needs time sitting...

Usually needs a few days to soak, the slowly try and free with proper 6 pt and breaker bar working it loose slowly and not forcing it.

[LittleWing77]

What is MMO, Chayal?

LittleWing77

[Chayal]

Marvels Mystery Oil

[Cpt Mark]

MMO=Marvelous Mystery Oil. Personally I'd use Kroil which is the only penetration oil allowed to be used on airplanes. It is expensive but really good.

So what probably happened is you have corrosion in the cylinder(s) with the rings and the cylinder wall. BTW- 4-107's are famous for back siphoning if you don't close the seacock. Happened to me twice.

Pour the penetrating oil of your choice after you sucked all the whatever fluid that is in there now out. Let it sit a few days. Come back with a 1/2 inch breaker bar and a nononsense socket that fits properly and a couple of feet on emt tube or some pipe that will fit over the breaker bar handle giving you additional leverage. See if you can move it back and forth, even just a little is a huge step. Keep pouring penetrating oil and repeating daily with the breaker bar or as often as you can.

It took me a week to get mine to move a little and another week before I could rotate the engine 360 degrees. After that, it started right up and ran fine. Well, until I did the same thing again, not close the seacock. 2nd time it never turned and was rebuild time. Good luck.

[FionaJC]

Thanks for the advice. I have had a look and MMO is oil with White Spirit. which I mixed up and tried yesterday but that cylinder is stubbornly full so I will go back in a couple of days and suck it out with a thin pipe and use some genuine MMO which I've ordered.

My main worry at the moment is about the diesel that just went straight through? I was told that was bad news by someone and I dont want to waste time changing the engine or pulling the head if I don't need to.

Im happy to keep rocking the crankshaft backwards and forwards with a scaffold tube on a breaker bar as I dont really want to pull the head off. I have a six point socket coming.

[dkenny64]

wouldn't be easier to just remove the injectors?
shouldn't this help remove compression? I'm not sure if the 4.107 is a IDI or a DI engine..it'll help it's a DI but not if its an IDI..


just a thought. as I'm still on my boat and need to run my engine..hum


-dkenny64

[Chayal]

Originally Posted by dkenny64

wouldn't be easier to just remove the injectors?
shouldn't this help remove compression? I'm not sure if the 4.107 is a IDI or a DI engine..it'll help it's a DI but not if its an IDI..


just a thought. as I'm still on my boat and need to run my engine..hum


-dkenny64

It’s the corrosion on the rings/cylinders that’s preventing it from turning. Basically the motor is “frozen” in place.

A good soak will let it loose after sitting...

Once the engine is actually turning over, the next phase of diagnostics will be required (possibly). Ex loss of compression, potential ring damage, etc.

This is possible but not always the case ^ OP might get lucky and a good soak, a few nice hot runs, will reseat everything to a working order. Depends on level of corrosion.

Either way, first step is to get that engine loose and able to spin!

[chris95040]

Are you certain it's a piston that's preventing the engine from turning and not a stuck valve?

Stuck valves are pretty common when an engine sits idle for a long time, particularly if theres a chance there was some salt water in the exhaust manifold.

I bent a pushrod and broke a rocker arm by getting impatient with a breaker bar after a similar incident. Still pretty surprised the valve was that well seized. (Also surprised, pleasantly, that after a fella who actually knew what he was doing nursed that valve back to life with penetrating oil and installed a new rocker arm and pushrod, the engine still roars to life about 1 second after hitting the starter. phew!)

On edit, it looks like you can't crank backwards, either, which i imagine rules out a stuck valve?

[FionaJC]

Originally Posted by dkenny64

wouldn't be easier to just remove the injectors?
shouldn't this help remove compression? I'm not sure if the 4.107 is a IDI or a DI engine..it'll help it's a DI but not if its an IDI..


just a thought. as I'm still on my boat and need to run my engine..hum


-dkenny64

I have pulled the injectors as the second task which was fun as they were well in place. What is DI and IDI?

[FionaJC]

Originally Posted by chris95040

Are you certain it's a piston that's preventing the engine from turning and not a stuck valve?

I cant move it in any direction. I have tried more clockwise as I dont want to undo the nut. I am going back when I have the MMO and a 6point socket, Ill give the valves a squeeze (somehow).

Does anyone know if I shoulkd be concerned about the through flow on No3 and could a TMP gearbox be seizing it all up?

[Lepke]

One or all the cylinders have rings froze to the cylinder liners. When dealing with engines with salt water flooding, you have to run them for a long period at near full load to clear away the water behind the rings and other small crevices. Two oil changes and two 30 minute runs were not enough to clear the water. I've rebuilt many dozens of engines and several were salt water salvage.

I'd bet all the cylinders are frozen. The water left behind rusts the cast iron rings to the sleeve walls.The rings are no good, and the sleeves will have lines of rust pits where the rings were stuck. New rings used with the existing liners will have a short life. You need to tear down the engine and install an engine kit. About $500US. A decent gas mechanic can rebuild a 4107 with a shop manual. Maybe in the boat. Another option would be a rebuilt or used 4108.

Just because diesel drains from some cylinders doesn't mean they're not stuck. Rings have gaps unless they're filled with rust. About .010-015" Whatever that is in mm.

If you break loose the engine, you can probably make it run. But you'll have low compression, difficult cold starts, high oil consumption, and leave a trail of oil in your wake.

[billgewater]

Bloody depressing isn't it? And you wonder why folk keep asking about electric propulsion systems. Reciprocating engines just have too many internal problems and have probably reached the peak of their development and yet we clearly have intractable expensive problems with them.

[Chayal]

Rebuild is always ideal, but not always realistic.

OP won’t know until that engine is turning over and running again on severity of what is required. I too have done plenty of rebuilds, and have seen these situations saved after A few good runs, oil dump and fills.

Let’s not give up hope or speculate yet ^

OP... some inspiration. One of my side vehicles was locked up for many years. It was pretty bad. When we first got that engine to run, it was low in power, in compression, the oil consumption was quiet high. It barely started.

After many runs it improved to an honest running state with half a litre being burned between oil changes.

Moral of story... to each their own really, but I’ve seen these situations saved aplenty.

Again... it depends on severity.