Running with a faulty alternater ... OK?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

The manatee crew bought a Temco hydraulic crimper on EBay for $100. Not a toy from China. Produces great crimps. They crimp cables for other sailors at a rate of six beers or one pizza per cable pair, so the tool has paid for itself.

Given fire in the electrical system is a expensive and serious issue, I think they made a good purchase. They don’t lend out the tool but it’s nice to do crimps for other sailors. You need heavy, good quality lugs and cable. They drink any beer.

Merry Christmas.

Captain Mark and his manatee crew.

My hydraulic one came from China but it’s no toy

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

My hydraulic one came from China but it’s no toy

Do you have any means of knowing if the workers in China who made that crimper were decently treated and paid a fair wage? That Chinese tool was made in a regime that does not respect the basic rights of its people. They are oppressed, and many are horribly abused.


If you can afford the luxury of a cruising yacht, can you not afford to purchase items for it that are made in reputable places that at least respect the basic rights of citizens ? Great that you are maintaining your own safety aboard your boat with special tools. But what of the safety and rights of workers who have made those tools?

[karkauai]

Check all wiring for bad connections, etc. Especially the field and ignition wires and ground. If you have only the one alternator and solar, you could have that one fail, too. Given a few cloudy days and you'll be wishing you had that alternator working.

[karkauai]

It's a good point but this is a cruiser's forum, not a political one. While I agree with your premise, please don't use this forum to denigrate others who might not agree, or who might not have had the option to buy a non-Chinese crimper.
Thanks

[Dieseldude]

It is always the best practice to have all essential equipment operational before sailing. And always good troubleshooting practice to check the basics before assuming a major technical issue, or replacement of major parts. Often seemingly highly technical problems turn out to be simple matters like bad connections.


In the realm of electrical troubleshooting and repair, in actual practice, purely electrical problems are not that common. Many problems are really mechanical failures that prevent electrics from working. If connector pins are bent or corroded, it is a mechanical fault that interrupts the current flow. If electric motor windings are burnt, this too is a mechanical failure of the wire. If water damages an electrical item, it is a mechanical failure that allowed water to penetrate electrical equipment. Even a circuit board loaded with high tech chips can have solder joint failures that are really mechanical. The chips themselves can be burned, which is also a mechanical failure. Good Electricians and Electronic Technicians understand that when troubleshooting, much of the time they are looking for mechanical failures that interrupt electrical activity. When installing equipment, they will do a quality job that will be mechanically robust to prevent mechanical failures that cause electrical faults.

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by karkauai

It's a good point but this is a cruiser's forum, not a political one. While I agree with your premise, please don't use this forum to denigrate others who might not agree, or who might not have had the option to buy a non-Chinese crimper.
Thanks

My point was not political. It was about basic rights of people. Basic human rights ought to be independent of politics. It is unfortunate that politics are brought into the matter. And I did not denigrate anyone. I asked a question and supported that question with a background statement. Your perception of denigration is your own mental construct.

[team karst]

Originally Posted by Dieseldude

It is always the best practice to have all essential equipment operational before sailing. And always good troubleshooting practice to check the basics before assuming a major technical issue, or replacement of major parts. Often seemingly highly technical problems turn out to be simple matters like bad connections.


In the realm of electrical troubleshooting and repair, in actual practice, purely electrical problems are not that common. Many problems are really mechanical failures that prevent electrics from working. If connector pins are bent or corroded, it is a mechanical fault that interrupts the current flow. If electric motor windings are burnt, this too is a mechanical failure of the wire. If water damages an electrical item, it is a mechanical failure that allowed water to penetrate electrical equipment. Even a circuit board loaded with high tech chips can have solder joint failures that are really mechanical. The chips themselves can be burned, which is also a mechanical failure. Good Electricians and Electronic Technicians understand that when troubleshooting, much of the time they are looking for mechanical failures that interrupt electrical activity. When installing equipment, they will do a quality job that will be mechanically robust to prevent mechanical failures that cause electrical faults.

A few years ago, some of my stuff caught a lightning bolt. An outside wet antenna insulator steamed up and exploded. Mechanical, electrical or thermodynamic issue. ? [emoji848]

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by team karst

A few years ago, some of my stuff caught a lightning bolt. An outside wet antenna insulator steamed up and exploded. Mechanical, electrical or thermodynamic issue. ? [emoji848]

A meteorological electrical incident caused a mechanical failure that caused an electrical fault. Lightening is unique in that it is electrically triggered, but it has thermal and mechanical effects. Had your radio failed purely due to an electrical power surge from lightening, I would call that a purely electrical failure. But your insulator exploded, so that is a mechanical failure.


We can have fun splitting hairs about what is considered an electrical or a mechanical failure. But my point was to be keenly aware of the electrical effects that the mechanical aspects of electrical equipment can have on electrical operation. When the electrons do not flow to where the should, or flow to where they should not, it could be an electrical effect of a mechanical failure. Keeping this in mind can be helpful when troubleshooting. And it can be helpful when installing equipment, to prevent electrical failures.

[rob d]

Follow what Team Karst suggested in post 28. If you unplug the V sense / Exciter wire the alternator will just be a belt tensioner and little else as long as the bearings are good.

Going over the spec sheet https://www.marinepartsexpress.com/prodbull/md2030.pdf
The MD2030 is one of those good old non computer controlled diesels that only needs electricity to start the engine and light the glow plugs for cold starts. Other than that from what I see it doesn't need electricity to operate. From what was posted above the alternator needs to stay on the engine to act as an idler for the belt to run the water pump. I'd unplug the V sense wire and take off and tape off the terminal on the hot wire that runs to the Bat post on the alternator and run it and figure out a plan to get it repaired or replaced when it is convenient, and finances provide.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Dieseldude

The problem of sealing a connection and maintaining conductivity is one of conflicting objectives. A perfectly sealed connection may have low conductivity. An unsealed connection may have good conductivity for a while, but become resistive eventually due to corrosion caused by water infiltration. Grease directly applied to mating conductors will seldom stop all current. Microscopic bumps on the surfaces will make contact, but there is doubt as to whether contact area will be sufficient. ..........

Originally Posted by Dieseldude

Grease in non compressible, so will form a relatively non yielding barrier between surfaces. It can be under hydraulic pressure. Air is compressible, so will not form a high viscosity barrier.


Nobody has mentioned the matter of surface finish and class of fit of mating surfaces. The too is a compromise. High surface finishes if an exact fit should offer superior conductivity. However this can be difficult to achieve. Insertion force on tight fits can make it difficult to impossible to mate and unmate connector pins. Allowing slight clearance decreases insertion force, but decreases conductivity. A lower grade finish will have more microscopic contact points, but perhaps not enough. .....................
.

These are all good points yet rarely thought about - either by the DIY boatman or the marine electrical professional. Sure some do consider these issues but IME, most don't.

The conventional wisdom is not to use a dielectric medium between mating contacts and it isn't my job to tip that on the head yet my experience tells me that you can (and should) in certain situations. The downsides of possibly slightly increased resistance when assembled new compared to the degradation later when corrosion inevitably occurs if not well sealed leads me to use a low pressure dielectric grease. The real consideration is how well the grease will flow out of the joint under contact pressure upon assembly. My experience (with using DC4) is it does allow sufficient metal to metal contact and prevents long term corrosion.
YMMV.

I ran a couple of DIY tests to see what actually occurs when bolting two cable lugs together - note this isn't a lab standard type of test, more a shade tree test. Make of it what you will.

First, two tinned copper cable lugs from the bottom of the tool box and one 10mm terminal post.

First two photos - a quick clean with a hand brass brush and some acetone to remove obvious surface contamination. Lugs bolted together to form the mating surfaces to each other and then disassembled.

Next two photos - bearing blue applied to the smaller lug, bolted together and dissembled. The absence bearing blue from the smaller one and the presence of bearing blue on the larger one indicates the area of metal to metal contact (photo 4). Surprisingly little in my view. The rest of the surfaces is where corrosion will occur.

Last two photos - bearing blue applied to smaller lug and a thin smear of dietetic grease (DC4) applied to the larger one. Again assembled and disassembled.

IMO, photo 6 looks completely different to photo 4. My interpretation is the DC4 picked up the bearing blue from the small lug surface and it flowed out of the joint under the contact pressure. The absence of bearing blue on the small lug indicating the metal to metal contact area.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Dieseldude

..........
This brings in the matter of cleaning and examining dirty or corroded contacts. Material may have been removed, so reliability will be lost. For connections that use clamping pressure like top post battery terminals, this is not a factor, as inward adjustment compensates. But fixed size connections such a pins in a multi pin connector might loose reliability by scraping off corrosion or dirt with a knife blade or abrasive. Even slight misalignment of pins can be troublesome. If one must clean pins by means that removes material to get equipment running, it would be wise to replace pins or whole connectors at earliest opportunity. It is best to do minimal damage such as using fine emery paper on precision connector pins, perhaps it would be good to keep a bit of 400 grit aboard. Use special electrical contact cleaners, not general purpose solvents. Test cleaners on small non critical areas of plastic substrates to be sure that the material will not be dissolved.
........

DeoxIT D5 is hard to beat. CAIG make a few variations for specialist contact materials but D5 is a great all rounder. AFAIK, it is still only contact cleaner approved by Boeing.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Since we want the Manatee crew to live long and prosper, please don't give them pizza and beer, despite their pleas, it's just cruel. You wouldn't give your dog chocolate, well it's the same for the Manatee crew.

Instead as a reward for doing a crimp, offer them a nice, sharp tasting, green apple. Your actions could literally be saving a life with such a simple gift

Dunno about the Manatees in you neck of the woods but if you offered the Manatees here a nice, sharp tasting, green apple, you will be waiting a long time for them to turn up. The guys offering pizza and beer will have the Manatees queuing outside the door with crimpers in their flippers.

I suppose a few long living Manatees might eventually show up...

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by Wotname

These are all good points yet rarely thought about - either by the DIY boatman or the marine electrical professional. Sure some do consider these issues but IME, most don't.

The conventional wisdom is not to use a dielectric medium between mating contacts and it isn't my job to tip that on the head yet my experience tells me that you can (and should) in certain situations. The downsides of possibly slightly increased resistance when assembled new compared to the degradation later when corrosion inevitably occurs if not well sealed leads me to use a low pressure dielectric grease. The real consideration is how well the grease will flow out of the joint under contact pressure upon assembly. My experience (with using DC4) is it does allow sufficient metal to metal contact and prevents long term corrosion.
YMMV.

I ran a couple of DIY tests to see what actually occurs when bolting two cable lugs together - note this isn't a lab standard type of test, more a shade tree test. Make of it what you will.

First, two tinned copper cable lugs from the bottom of the tool box and one 10mm terminal post.

First two photos - a quick clean with a hand brass brush and some acetone to remove obvious surface contamination. Lugs bolted together to form the mating surfaces to each other and then disassembled.

Next two photos - bearing blue applied to the smaller lug, bolted together and dissembled. The absence bearing blue from the smaller one and the presence of bearing blue on the larger one indicates the area of metal to metal contact (photo 4). Surprisingly little in my view. The rest of the surfaces is where corrosion will occur.

Last two photos - bearing blue applied to smaller lug and a thin smear of dietetic grease (DC4) applied to the larger one. Again assembled and disassembled.

IMO, photo 6 looks completely different to photo 4. My interpretation is the DC4 picked up the bearing blue from the small lug surface and it flowed out of the joint under the contact pressure. The absence of bearing blue on the small lug indicating the metal to metal contact area.

Great set of tests Wotname. Looks like surface quality is the big factor. Crimp lugs are mass produced in punch presses. The flat stock surface finish is quite course to begin with. Add in some distortion from the bending operation, and hole punching, and contact area suffers. But the cost of machining a quality finish would put up the price. Current capacity is determined by both thickness of material and contact area. Thickness is important for DC and low frequency AC. For higher frequencies such as radio, "skin effect" becomes more important than thickness, as higher frequencies are mainly conducted close to the surface. Hence high power microwave and radar systems use hollow wave guides that are hollow rectangular tubing.



If one wanted to be fussy, lug surfaces could be filed flat. This takes extra time. And the tin plating would be removed. But what does it matter about tin plating? Contact surfaces would be copper to copper. Tin is only there to prevent oxidation of the copper that is exposed to atmosphere. The mating surfaces would have next to no air contact, and edges would be covered with grease.



Attention to fine details makes the difference between a job that will be reliable and last a long time. A smash and go, take the money and run job will have needless failure at some time. Haste makes waste. Best practice is to do it right once.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by Wotname

I ran a couple of DIY tests to see what actually occurs when bolting two cable lugs together - note this isn't a lab standard type of test, more a shade tree test. Make of it what you will.

A variation of the tests you ran are/were quite commonly used in machine tool work to give an indication of the interface between machined surfaces that must slide one upon the other, like the beds of lathes that were hand scraped to fit.
The "transfer" that shows between the lugs are the high spots, and are probably within a couple of thou of the lows, it's a very small amount.
But whatever, that's why I recommended "Conductive" grease.
You get a fully conductive joint over the surface area and the oxygen is sealed out.
However, because it does conduct, you can't just "blob in on" and squeeze it out, a small/thin film on the mating surfaces is sufficient.
If one feels that the outside surfaces must be covered with something to prevent corrosion, the auto parts stores have all kinds of concoctions for that.
And, in a pinch, plain old Vaseline has worked forever, or nail polish.
It's easy to go down rabbit holes talking about perfectly sealed this or that,
but in reality, a batt cable has air between all of its strands for its full length.
Even the best crimp does not produce a "gas tight" or "solid mass" like a swedge fitting on your rigging, the crimp joint still contains air.
Like most things, you do the best you can with what you've got, and move on to the next thing on the list,, like more varnishing.

[karkauai]

Just thinking it'd be nice to talk boats on a cruisers forum. Lots of places out there to talk about outher ideas.