Lighter vs heavier diesel engine

[stormalong]

The only disadvantage of a high quality lighter engine is boat trim.

I replaced a Perkins 4-108 with a Beta 50 twenty years ago. It is much superior to the antiquated 4-108. After 4500 hours it still performs well. No major issues.

However, after the swap the bow was noticeably angled down. To compensate I now have a bucket of chain in the lazarette. Not good to have weight concentrated at the ends of the boat but still better for sailing performance.

[Kasper]

Originally Posted by Rumpi

Go back and read again, this time more carefully, so you can compare apples to apples. For example the Lombardini is a 2 cylinder engine and all others are 3 cylinder ones.
The 3YM20 dry weight without gearbox is 110kg. The recommended Kanzaki is only 9.8kg.
The Volvo D1-20 is only quoted with gearbox (132kg) or saildrive (144kg).
The Nanni 3.21, is quoted 106kg with gearbox (TMC 40, 8.8kg).
The Beta 20 is quoted 104kg and it doesn't actually say if it's with or without gearbox. It's the same base engine as the Nanni.

If you want to know where the weight differences come from, you need to compare the base engine weight vs. the marinized version, and the different gearbox/saildrive weights. For example the Kubota D722 wich is the basis for N 3.21 and B 20, weighs 63kg naked. The Perkins 403D-07 wich is the basis for the Volvo is quoted 71kg, but Perkins does not weigh the same things as Kubota so you can't compare them unless you know the difference.

In short, the variation isn't as much as you think and comes mostly from the marinisation parts.
The Lombardini is indeed lighter because besides all Al construction it also has unit injectors and belt distribution.

Thank you for the explanation.

From all research I have done it seems the Beta weight is including the TMC 40, however, I might be wrong.

You are correct about the Lombardini being 2 cylinders, did not think of that. Their 3 cyl 27hp weighs only 115, so they are generally more lightweight. The aluminium construction and belt distribution, does that have an impact on the durability etc?

[Rumpi]

Sorry, I should take some of my own medicine, the Lombardini has a cast iron block with Al cylinder head and pan, it's not completely Al. The OHC unit injection system was buildt in millions by VW (the P-D engine family) its not a liability. But, working on this engines does require specialized knowledge and tools, and of course the belt should be changed regularly.

There are no bad modern engines, and in this power category to my knowledge there is only one dedicated marine engine left (Bukh DV24) the rest are all marinized industrial engines. The most popular come from Mitsubishi (Vetus, Sole, Craftsman, etc.) Kubota (Nanni, Beta, etc.), Perkins (Volvo), while Yanmar and Kohler (Lombardini) are also manufacturers.
What varies is the marinisation quality, aftermarket support, dealer network, etc.
The much discussed "Kubota spares are cheaper" is marketing (started by Beta, who actually wasn't the first Kubota mariniser), Kubota doesn't make heat exchangers, raw water pumps, filters, belts, etc.

[boat driver]

Originally Posted by deblen

My opinions Volvo,Yanmar,Beta/Nanni-all basically good engines.
Your choice should be influenced quite strongly by:


1.Parts & service in your area.
2.Other owner's reviews of the service shop.
3.Source/price of parts. eg. Volvo,Yanmar-usually available from OE mfgr & expensive.Beta/Nanni-based on common Kubota engine used by many tractors & other non-marine so parts can be much less expensive.
4.Installation complexity/cost. eg.How much modification $$ to fit new engine in old boat?


Cheers/Len

Alll parts are expensive. Kubota no cheaper.
Otherwise begin with fitting and then follow list.
But to suggest your. Weight questions in simplicity-
Vibration is a product of engine rpm and balance- ie design quality.
Weight begins to be modern technology driven and can be a product without a great deal of longevity experience. Recreation operation tends to average 100 hours a year so engines really never get broken in but suffer more often with corrosion and bad fuel problems before the hours begin to show mechanical failures.
Additionally. Many vessels are going to generator operations instead of stored power, and desiel electric. This allows technology to focus on predicted load engines- thereby reducing weights among other efficiency.
If really reaearching- derive the original use of that specific design/block.
That may help you answer your question

[Pete the Cat]

Originally Posted by Rumpi

Sorry, I should take some of my own medicine, the Lombardini has a cast iron block with Al cylinder head and pan, it's not completely Al. The OHC unit injection system was buildt in millions by VW (the P-D engine family) its not a liability. But, working on this engines does require specialized knowledge and tools, and of course the belt should be changed regularly.

There are no bad modern engines, and in this power category to my knowledge there is only one dedicated marine engine left (Bukh DV24) the rest are all marinized industrial engines. The most popular come from Mitsubishi (Vetus, Sole, Craftsman, etc.) Kubota (Nanni, Beta, etc.), Perkins (Volvo), while Yanmar and Kohler (Lombardini) are also manufacturers.
What varies is the marinisation quality, aftermarket support, dealer network, etc.
The much discussed "Kubota spares are cheaper" is marketing (started by Beta, who actually wasn't the first Kubota mariniser), Kubota doesn't make heat exchangers, raw water pumps, filters, belts, etc.

I agree with the above. I have both a Kubota based engine on one of my boats and a Yanmar on the other. The build quality of the Yanmar is superior for marine use. The Kubota is marinized with a lot of different metals and parts that the "marine diesel" company put together. I think if you are just going in an out of your slip and for the occasional weekend and plan to own your boat for a few years, any diesel will work. Yanmar sales and customer servicee stink, but their build quality is way better for marine use--my Yanmar starts without need of glow plugs, needs no zincs (because there are not a host of different metals in the system to promote eletrolysis). I can keep the Kubota running but it requires much more intervention, particularly of the marinization parts. Betamarine has a very active sales and good customer service operation that has influenced the market--and Yanmar does not. But I prefer Yanmar for the kind of sailing I do.

[donradcliffe]

You will be much happier with a 3 cylinder engine, because it is much easier to balance than a 2 cylinder and vibration will be a lot lower.

The Kubota diesels in the Beta are legendary tough tractor engines, and I have 3 Kubota tractor dealers within 50 miles of me that have injectors and head gaskets on their shelves. Anyone who tells you Volvo parts are cheaper doesn't live on this planet.

The little 3 cylinder Kubotas are dependent on glow plugs, but I never used the glow plugs in my Beta 50 before I sold the boat with 2000 hours on it.

[Sailorman97]

Originally Posted by Kasper

Hi,

What about the Beta? Why are they so light compared to the bigger brands?

Avoid the Beta. The reason the weight is not there is because the engine you think your buying is not there.

I bought a Beta 75. When we tried to fit a propeller to it we could not turn the prop that Flex-o-Fold sent. We were short 450 rpm on a 2600 max rpm motor. We had the blades replaced and we could not turn them either but we were out of time to switch them again

One day 6 yrs later I was looking for a service manual so I was looking at the engine stickers. Beta's sticker said 75hp. Kubota's sticker sayd 49.8 kw which is 66 hp. Now the mystery of why we could not turn the blades was solved.

I ended up having to remove 1/2 from each blade to take it down another inch in diameter. Now we could turn the prop.

Beta is ripping you off by selling something and then sending you something else. I would have gladly paid the upcharge to get a real 75hp motor because when your under powered you burn a lot more fuel up near your top end.

Other issue is that they say you can get parts anywhere but try it. All of these engines are different and the serial number is what you need to give them to get parts. The Betamarine serial numbers do not exist on the Kubota dealers computers.

[stormalong]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

You will be much happier with a 3 cylinder engine, because it is much easier to balance than a 2 cylinder and vibration will be a lot lower.

The Kubota diesels in the Beta are legendary tough tractor engines, and I have 3 Kubota tractor dealers within 50 miles of me that have injectors and head gaskets on their shelves. Anyone who tells you Volvo parts are cheaper doesn't live on this planet.

The little 3 cylinder Kubotas are dependent on glow plugs, but I never used the glow plugs in my Beta 50 before I sold the boat with 2000 hours on it.

Don, I have a Beta 50, 20 years old and about 4500 hours on it. I agree with everything you said except about the glow plugs.

I was in London for the winter of 2002-2003 and worked directly with the factory and the managing director. When the engine was ready I visited the factory for an inspection. The gent that took me through the engine inspection told me to always use the pre-heat. I have followed that religiously. The engine starts in less than a second, even on very cold days. The pre-heat saves starter stress and I expect it to last just about forever.

How many Yanmar owners carry a spare starter?

[wingssail]

We chose a Yanmar because we believed that Yanmar dealers were the most common in overseas locations. (We planned to sail world wide).

We rarely needed parts for our 3JH2E but whenever we did we were able to find a dealer or mechanic. They are present in every overseas port where cruising boats congregate.

We do carry a few Yanmar parts and have not found them to be overly expensive, starters for example can be sourced from many vendors.

Our Yanmar has 7000+ hours and runs perfectly (not that we haven't had some minor problems, but what motor doesn't?)

[stormalong]

Originally Posted by Sailorman97

Avoid the Beta. The reason the weight is not there is because the engine you think your buying is not there.

I bought a Beta 75. When we tried to fit a propeller to it we could not turn the prop that Flex-o-Fold sent. We were short 450 rpm on a 2600 max rpm motor. We had the blades replaced and we could not turn them either but we were out of time to switch them again

One day 6 yrs later I was looking for a service manual so I was looking at the engine stickers. Beta's sticker said 75hp. Kubota's sticker sayd 49.8 kw which is 66 hp. Now the mystery of why we could not turn the blades was solved.

I ended up having to remove 1/2 from each blade to take it down another inch in diameter. Now we could turn the prop.

Beta is ripping you off by selling something and then sending you something else. I would have gladly paid the upcharge to get a real 75hp motor because when your under powered you burn a lot more fuel up near your top end.

Other issue is that they say you can get parts anywhere but try it. All of these engines are different and the serial number is what you need to give them to get parts. The Betamarine serial numbers do not exist on the Kubota dealers computers.

If you look at the Kubota Engine America website you will see that a Tier 4 V2607 diesel is rated at 71.1 horsepower at 2700 rpm. That same block also has other versions with different HP ratings. Since tier 4 pollution controls rob some horsepower you may actually have a 75 HP engine. The tier 4 pollution controls are not present on the Beta engines.

So I have to ask are you sure?

Of course the Beta numbers are not in the Kubota database. The Kubota serial number is on the engine - cast in as a matter of fact and I am sure Beta would tell it to you if you asked.

Furthermore, when buying parts for my Beta 50 I have never been asked for the serial number. Granted the only parts I have purchased from Kubota engine/tractor dealers has been valve cover gaskets and filters. Although I did buy new injectors for half the Kubota price by buying Denso boxed parts. Denso is the injector supplier to Kubota. I have also searched the internet for Kubota part numbers and found an exhaust elbow gasket (oem) for very little money. It came with in Kubota packaging so I expect it is not counterfeit. They are so cheap to begin with that I doubt anyone would bother to counterfeit one.

So, I have to say that after 20 years and about 4500 engine hours I am very happy with my Beta purchase. Very little maintenance and no drama.

[Goodxcharly]

You might take a look at the specs, weight of the engine minus the marinization.
Go to Yanmar and Kubotas website.

[Sailorman97]

Originally Posted by stormalong

If you look at the Kubota Engine America website you will see that a Tier 4 V2607 diesel is rated at 71.1 horsepower at 2700 rpm. That same block also has other versions with different HP ratings. Since tier 4 pollution controls rob some horsepower you may actually have a 75 HP engine. The tier 4 pollution controls are not present on the Beta engines.

So I have to ask are you sure?

Of course the Beta numbers are not in the Kubota database. The Kubota serial number is on the engine - cast in as a matter of fact and I am sure Beta would tell it to you if you asked.

Furthermore, when buying parts for my Beta 50 I have never been asked for the serial number. Granted the only parts I have purchased from Kubota engine/tractor dealers has been valve cover gaskets and filters. Although I did buy new injectors for half the Kubota price by buying Denso boxed parts. Denso is the injector supplier to Kubota. I have also searched the internet for Kubota part numbers and found an exhaust elbow gasket (oem) for very little money. It came with in Kubota packaging so I expect it is not counterfeit. They are so cheap to begin with that I doubt anyone would bother to counterfeit one.

So, I have to say that after 20 years and about 4500 engine hours I am very happy with my Beta purchase. Very little maintenance and no drama.

When the manufacturers power rating is on the engine and it differs from the sellers power rating I am pretty sure I know who I would believe. Then take into account it could not turn the propeller and it is all pretty clear.

Take your Betamarine/Kubota serial number which is stamped into the block to a Kubota dealer and they will not find it in their system.

No offence but do you work for the company or something? You say you have never bought parts from a Kubota dealer but then presume to tell me I am wrong?

You are happy with your purchase because it still runs.
I feel I got ripped off because they sold me one thing and delivered another and you question if I know what I am talking about?

You have never tried to get Kubota parts for it, and you have never checked if the Kubota rating is the same as the BM rating on your engine, yet you have the temerity to question the evidence I have provided.


How about you look for the Kubota power rating on your engine and see if it matches the Betamarine rating. How about you take the block serial number to a Kubota dealer and see if you can get parts.

Maybe then you can get back to me.

PS.. Hey Beta, please sue me for giving false information so the judge can tell you to take your engine back.

[MicHughV]

I'd be more concerned about the reliability of the engine, rather than a few kgs one way or another.
An extra case of beer or two onboard will nullify this discussion of weight.
Why worry about a few extra kgs of engine weight, when you will load the boat up with all sorts of other stuff.
As mentioned several times above, the Kubota derived engines have a reputation for solid performance. Yanmar is also a very good engine.

Don't make this more difficult than it needs to be.

[stormalong]

Originally Posted by Sailorman97

When the manufacturers power rating is on the engine and it differs from the sellers power rating I am pretty sure I know who I would believe. Then take into account it could not turn the propeller and it is all pretty clear.

Take your Betamarine/Kubota serial number which is stamped into the block to a Kubota dealer and they will not find it in their system.

No offence but do you work for the company or something? You say you have never bought parts from a Kubota dealer but then presume to tell me I am wrong?

You are happy with your purchase because it still runs.
I feel I got ripped off because they sold me one thing and delivered another and you question if I know what I am talking about?

You have never tried to get Kubota parts for it, and you have never checked if the Kubota rating is the same as the BM rating on your engine, yet you have the temerity to question the evidence I have provided.


How about you look for the Kubota power rating on your engine and see if it matches the Betamarine rating. How about you take the block serial number to a Kubota dealer and see if you can get parts.

Maybe then you can get back to me.

PS.. Hey Beta, please sue me for giving false information so the judge can tell you to take your engine back.

Well let's look at your remarks one item at a time.

1) Kubota America says the V2607 comes in many versions up to 74.3 HP.

https://www.kubotaengine.com/kubota-...n-reliability/

And that is tier 4 pollution controls. Is your engine tier 4? Is 74.3 HP close enough to 75 to call it 75?

Were you over propped? Could you or whoever picked your propeller picked too big of a prop?


2) Don't change my words without substantiating what you say.

The original Kubota engine number is on the block. Did you ask Beta Marine for the engine serial number?


3) I told you in my post that I BOUGHT an engine from them 20 years ago. I am not an employee of Beta. However, the support I have received from Beta has been excellent. I have never been told to contact a local dealer for support. I have always gotten an answer from Beta directly.


4) I know that you feel ripped off by Beta Marine. I asked and have to repeat my question: Are you sure Beta Marine lied to you? I will take the word of a reputable engine marinizer over the word of some angry guy who can't substantiate his words.


5) I have found many sources for Kubota parts. Unlike certain other engine sellers Beta does not hide their engine origins and sell parts for several hundred percent markups. From my RESEARCH I know Kubota parts are available at reasonable prices.

Yes, I question the temerity of the "evidence" you provided. My own research from the Kubota website contradicts your "evidence".


So, maybe you can get back to me when you have done your homework and can substantiate your claims.

[Sailorman97]

Originally Posted by stormalong

Well let's look at your remarks one item at a time.
.

Literally can not be bothered with this kind of nonsense