Help!! Perkins4-108/Westerbeke wont bleed

[agolbitz]

On vacation, got some bad fuel. Changed primary racor, fuel much cleaner, installed new secondary and system wont bleed. Secondary filter (Napa 3166)came with three large rubber gaskets, but I only see a location for two-one on the base and one on the bowl-yet i think its letting air into the secondary because i cant get fuel to pump out of the banjo bolt/securing bolt holding filter to base. Where would the third gasket go?
Stranded in Maine on bacation[emoji15][emoji15][emoji15]

[RGN]

I can think of worse places to be stranded!


But, stranded is not good. Shooting from the hip here as I am not sure exactly you have for a filter housing:


Do your filters fill on the suction side of the fuel pump or the pressure side?



Is the bolt,spring, washer, gasket assembly replaced in correct order? Is the washer(s) in that assembly in good condition and sealing?



Are you you sure you need more than one gasket between the housing and the top? How was the old filter set up?


Are you sure there is no clog between the primary and secondary filters?



Can you fill the secondary housing when no filter is installed. Primary will protect enough for testing.


Can you reroute the fuel line to bypass the secondary filter, to be sure that is the problem?


Sorry without knowing what you have for a setup it is hard to be much help.


Good luck

[sailah]

Originally Posted by agolbitz

On vacation, got some bad fuel. Changed primary racor, fuel much cleaner, installed new secondary and system wont bleed. Secondary filter (Napa 3166)came with three large rubber gaskets, but I only see a location for two-one on the base and one on the bowl-yet i think its letting air into the secondary because i cant get fuel to pump out of the banjo bolt/securing bolt holding filter to base. Where would the third gasket go?
Stranded in Maine on bacation[emoji15][emoji15][emoji15]

Post pics of filters, will help everyone with a frame of reference as to what we are looking at.

[Lepke]

The filter fits a variety of engines and an extra gasket is there for IHC (tractor) installations.

If you're pumping manually with the lever on a lift pump, the engine could be in the wrong position. Lift pump is driven by a cam lobe and if the lobe is near it's peak, there isn't enough movement to pump fuel. Crank the engine to a different position. You could have a plug in the line or a valve in the lift pump held open by debris. Also the fuel pickup in the tank could be plugged.

Won't help now, but an inline 12v pump makes filter changes and bleeding easy.

[phorvati]

Originally Posted by agolbitz

On vacation, got some bad fuel. Changed primary racor, fuel much cleaner, installed new secondary and system wont bleed. Secondary filter (Napa 3166)came with three large rubber gaskets, but I only see a location for two-one on the base and one on the bowl-yet i think its letting air into the secondary because i cant get fuel to pump out of the banjo bolt/securing bolt holding filter to base. Where would the third gasket go?
Stranded in Maine on bacation[emoji15][emoji15][emoji15]

I hated those filters...I had a w-40 on my old boat, and the first time i changed those, I thought all three gaskets are utilized. i put two on the top and blocked the flow of fuel. It turns out only two are used top/bottom. They are not easy to install. Drop the filter again and see if your gasket is seated along the rim. Because if it got squished or sits sideways that is how air is getting in. You might already have some of these but...
Links on pdfs with bleeding instructions etc.

Index of /manuals
some other good stuff
Engine

[agolbitz]

We appreciate everyones help. Just reseated the filter only using two gaskets-still wont bleed out of banjo bolt that secures the bowl to the top with filter sandwiched in between. When i loosen the thru bolt , which is also the banjo/bleed bolt, fuel spills out from beneath the top without bleeding out of the bolt.
There are only three designated bleed spots on W40, but still dribbling when I crack injectors

[shakey doug]

Have you cleaned filter under lid of lift pump? A good strong dribble is enough for a start if no air is present.

[Cpt Mark]

Trying to bleed with the manual fuel pump is a pain in the butt. On my 4-107 I just cracked the last injector and started the engine. Most of the time that worked. You could try spraying wd40 into the air intake a shot at a time. You can run the engine by just using shots into the air intake, crack the last injector and bled it out there.

WD40 won't hurt your engine like ether can.

[MicHughV]

I had the Perkins 108/Westerbeke on one of my previous boats.

My suggestion would be to start a process of elimination.

1) Are the fuel lines clear, both the main feed and the fuel return line. If you can manage to remove these from the engine and blow thru' them you can check this. Sometimes it is possible to attach a small diameter rubber hose to these lines to facilitate this.
2) Check the fuel tank vent, usually located on the outside of the hull and protected by a tiny mesh screen. Believe it or not I had a wasp dobber clog this vent up with mud.
3) Some engines use either both an " electric" fuel pump and a manual pump or separately, but either of these could have failed or become clogged.
4) Check your fuel filters and replace the filters. Besides contaminated fuel, check for water. Your boat should have a primary Raycor type filter and a secondary filter on the engine, either or both of these could be blocked.
5) Older boats routinely have bad fuel/slime/sludge/water in the tanks, any of which could cause you a problem, clog the filters, etc.
6) Some boats are fitted with a shut-off valve from the tank, or a multi-valve system if you have more than 1 tank. Check this.

Ok, once you have done that, it's time to bleed the system. If you can remove the fuel tank vent line and blow in it to pressurize the tank, you should be able to blow fuel thru' the system and save yourself a lot of trouble.

If your engine only has the engine cam driven fuel pump, check this as well. This pump works of a cam that draws a rubber membrane in and out. Like a previous poster said, you might have to rotate the engine by switching on the starter motor for a second to rotate the cam. you will know it's working when you feel some pressure on the little handle outside the engine. Though rare, these little diaphragm pumps sometimes break or the membrane fails.
If an electric pump, find a way to power the pump on, without starting the engine. Check that it pumps fuel.

It's also possible that the fuel injector pump has failed. These pumps work under enormous pressure and with extremely tight orifices.
Same with the injectors on the engine. The orifices in the injectors are minute.
These are beyond the ability of most boaters to fix and will require a trip to a diesel shop.

When bleeding this system, it is a step by step process. There are air release vents/valves all over the place. a) at the pump, b) at the injector pump, c) loosening the injector feed line from the injector.
Keep the pressure on while loosening and tightening these.
Like I said, if you can pressurize the fuel tank, this will simplify the process.
Even if you see fuel at these various pumps, check for " bubbles" in the fuel. You gotta keep pumping until you see no more " bubbles".

I have gone thru' this process a number of times on many different engines. Be patient and be dilligent and you will succeed.
Diesels are tough engines, but only a microscopic piece of dirt/air/water can cause you a headache.
You may fix the problem in 30 minutes or spend all day chasing down a potential " hot spot"

Hope this helps...

[steamgoat]

DO NOT FORGET to shut off water supply when cranking and not starting,possible to flood engine if not firing to expell water.

[ckeijser]

I once had a perkins 4108 that would not start after bleeding. Mechanic partially blocked the air intake while starting. This made the engine turn with higher rpms, sucking the remaining air out and starting her up. Hope this helps.

[BruceS]

You never bleed it by loosening the thru bolt that holds the filter on.
Mine had a CAV top housing that had a separate bleed screw/bolt in that top housing but just cracking the outlet pipe at that housing is similar.
4108's suck & prime themselves pretty good ....

[Joyful Noise]

have you given any thought to polishing the fuel first?

[MicHughV]

I have to echo that. If the filter show signs of contamination, water, debris, sludge, slime, whatever, the problem will likely be in the tank. The writer did mention he picked up some bad fuel, cleaned the filters, etc, but the problem may persist in the fuel lines themselves, which can get clogged up, and off course, the tank...this problem can be compounded by a rough trip, which causes the fuel and whatever is in there to mix.

As a side note, I had an opportunity to replace a diesel fuel tank on one of my boats. Tank had been in use for about 10 years.
On a whim I removed the " inspection covers" over the top of the tank.
I was surprised to see a rather thick layer of gooey slime covering the bottom of the tank. The fuel pick line was about 2" of the bottom, so fortunately I wasn't sucking up this stuff, additionally, I always endeavored to have the tank at least half full.

Nonetheless, a fuel polishing effort, would be on the top of my list. No point in changing anything, if the problem will continue to emanate from the tank.

[jpendoley]

Friends-an update for you all and, I hope, some humor for your morning. We, Agolbitz and I, suffered the humiliation of our first on water tow. Self reliance at sea is a pretty strong value of mine and taking assistance pained me, but we are on a schedule. After a rough 12 mile tow (insured thank God) we were back on our mooring.
The next morning I was back under the cockpit. To begin I closed the raw water intake-cuz in spite of how I might sound, I am not a complete noob. Switched from a Napa secondary 3166 to a wixfilter-it fit much better, bled all three points a couple times and Mr Perkins fired right up! To say we were happy is to understate the euphoria we felt-I sat there and marveled at my prowess, listening to the engine clattering along until I noticed a little smoke wafting up from the engine...no worries I thought, a little spilled diesel might smoke off. That’s when I noticed the absence of the sound of water ejecting from the stern of the boat and remember the closed raw water intake[emoji15]. Opened the intake double time and confirmed five minutes of run time on a dry impeller will melt it considerably and that impeller will never pimp again! Thankfully, plenty of spares aboard and it was just about time for an impeller change-back under the cockpit I crawled again-did I mention I am tall and have a v-drive sandwhiched up against the fuel tank? Alls well that end well-we are running again and pumping water with a new primary and secondary filter AND a new impeller. This forum is invaluable and you were all incredibly helpful-thank you all for your help. Next project is draining the tank and cleaning thoroughly once we get 60 miles south-and yes, I have at least a half dozen spare filter and a couple of impellers aboard.