Ding like bell sound like pinking from diesel Yanmar 2M15 2006 version after low oi

[bouncycastle]

I filled the 10 gallon tank with 7 gallons of marked diesel which has no bio fuel in it and there was 3 gallons of road fuel in tank with ~7 % bio fuel as mandated by communist run EU fuel regulations .

The engine at first ran fine for one hour ticking over as I prepared to leave until the low oil alarm triggered and I shut down

Checked the oil level and surprising for me there was no oil on DIP stick.

Replaced oil and ran engine on tick over next day for one hour oil low alarm triggered as I was getting ready to leave .
Figured there was some sort of oil leak and found it at back under the engine one but holding on sump was leaking

Two days many tools later managed to get at offending but and nip it eneogh the leak is now very little


Only way to fully cure problem isbremove engine and that puts me into high season rates at this marina would rather go some few hundred miles to safe cheap anchoring spot in west ireland and do that there where I can use a free pier to park the boat up while I extract the motor and fix it

However running engine now at tick over is this ringing sound fairly rythamatic stops then seems yo make ringing sounds then stops

The sound goes away best I can tell at higher RPM

The first incident of low oil the engine ran for over one minute but less than two minuted before shut down with low oil alarm due to not comprehending what that type of alarm was I thought it was to do with alternator .Second time the oil alarm was chirping and shut down straight away .

Engines I know don't like to run with no oil and siege up.

The ding sound I know can be anything from main bearing big ends to piston rings break ups to pieces of metal inside piston chambers .

So looking for ideas

My hope is that marked fuel off road types because it has much higher density carbon type molicules and supplies up to 20% more energy than normal car fuel diesel cut down with lowwer Cetane level bio fuel is causing some sort of pinking effect.
The ringing sound is so similar to petrol car with wrong petrol fuel its why I suspect fuel

The engine seems to run fine and prop engaged tied to marina seems to pull as normal .

Any advice except buy new engine as next engine will be electric conversion next year or year after.

I have a spare SAAB 10 HP that I can put in the boat if I have to for now but that is huge work season over as I am amateur at mechanics

[bouncycastle]

Another mechanics forum suggested that there is sticky valve stem with piston hitting the stem or some piston valve stem interaction

Open to ideas a sticky stem can be replaced big job to take head off but still possible less bad than big end bearing issues

Typo the engine is yanmar 2ym15 of ~ 2006 era 2 pot ~ 600cc 12.5 HP approx

[bouncycastle]

I can't find the Yanmar 2ym15 manual online

The Yanmar 2qm20 engine manual on fuel section says that wrong Cetane level fuel can cause diesel knock and damage engine over time

However it is not specific which is wrong Cetane level is that too high eg exceeds British standards of 55 or is it to low possibly less than 50 Cetane

Winter diesel fuel often has some small %'kero in it to stop waxxing in low temperatures

I asked for fuel last week and got delivered 10 gallons of marked fuel which has often better fuel density in carbon resulting in better MPG used for off road type stuff like generators or Tractors which do heavy work .

However it might be because it is in drums winter fuel with high kero content with reduced Cetane level and also might be older fuel if that has any effect in diesel with no alga collecting type fuels like the bio fuels do

When I turn engine over with stop fuel button on there is only the perfect swish sounds no ringing

When I start engine cold there is no ringing sounds initially

After few minutes the ringing starts and gets worse as engine heats up

I really suspect fuel is the fault causing some sort of diesel knock problem

Tommorow I will remove half the fuel about 5 gallons and can it and get another 5 gallons of normal road fuel and put it into tank.
Hopefully the fact engine did not seem to have the knock event before changing the fuel type will cure the problem

Fingers crossed always open to new info if somebody knows different

I know hard to figure but three variables were done at same time change in fuel , tightened up the alternator and got belt squelling so had to loosen it up again and and got oil leak and lost most all engine oil twice in two days in less than one hour engine run ..

Marked fuel in Europe is typically colored fuel either red or green sold in UK or france or Ireland. Often now banned in most EU as its tax free fuel for non road car use

As this marked fuel is often used for heating or tractor farming hard work stuff the fuel tends to be 100% diesel fuel using heavier carbon molecules so gives extra power .

The marked fuel would tend not to useful fuel for high performance diesel cars with turbos etc which are better served with lower density diesel fuel with other qualities

However the addition of bio fuel content of ~7% in road car diesel often causes alga to grow in the fuel that boats use because they might keep most of the fuel in tank for a season and that allows alga to grow and create havoc in engines unless anti alga chemicals are added to the fuel

Marked diesel has little or no tendency to grow alga but given enough time can sometimes grow alga


That's my understanding of the story if others know different please to supply the correct info

Thanks

[Compass790]

Unfortunately I think your problem has nothing to do with the fuel.
Because you ran out of oil you likely have sustained mechanical damage. If you don't have an oil pressure gauge buy a cheap mechanical one from a cart parts chain store & fit it where the sender goes for a start. Report back what the oil pressure is.
You didn't run it for long once alarm went off so that helps but if the fuel was the problem it would have done it sooner probably. Does Yanmar say you can use biofuel in it? I imagine you can.
That's my take on it anyway but I'm hoping I'm wrong.
Man your bilge must look bad with 2 lots of oil gone in!

[Scubaseas]

You definitely need to put a mechanical oil pressure gauge on it. Change the oil filter if you have not done so yet. Report back oil pressure cold at idle, cold oil pressure at 2500RPM and hot oil pressure at idle and hot oil pressure at 2500RPM. Hot means running with a load for an hour or so.

If you have low oil pressure don't run it. You can find the oil pressure specs in the repair manual but I would think around 10PSI or more at idle and around 40PSI at 2500RPM should be OK.

Doubt it's a fuel issue but you can add a cetane booster like LiquiMoly

https://products.liqui-moly.com/supe...ditive-14.html

[skipperpete]

The quick diagnostic is to get a container of clean diesel fuel, connect it directly to the engine with a couple of lengths of fuel hose and purge all of the suspect fuel from the secondary filter, the injector pump and by cranking, from the injector lines. If the noise is gone then it’s likely that your suspicion re dodgy fuel ( gasoline?) is correct.
But like Compass790 I’m more concerned about the oil loss so if the noise is still there after running on genuine diesel fuel, you should do a post mortem on the oil filter canister. Cut off the top of the filter and extract the pleated paper.... inspect it on both sides for shiny metal particles ( or any particles at all). This is a good way to confirm or dismiss seizure damage from loss of lube oil.
Pete.

[Wotname]

The 3YM30 requires a cetane rating of 45 (or higher). I expect the 2YM15 would be the same.

[Compass790]

Skipperpete gave you good tips as always,
Just wanted to add sticky valve is a possibility but engine wouldnt run that well & you say it is. Try skipperpetes tips 1st but you could remove rocker cover & turn engine over decompressed ( if poss) or with fuel stop on & look if valves operating normally.
I don't know your engine specifically

[skipperpete]

Hey bouncycastle I’m curious to know more about the sump bolt that leaked out about 3.5 litres of lube oil in an astonishingly short time, twice. That’s just a splash area , no pressure galleries[emoji848]
When you first posted, I thought that the ringing noise could have been somehow related to the alternator fan but dismissed the idea until I reread the post and noticed what you said about having to loosen the alternator belt to stop it squealing.......usually tightening the belt stops belt squeal and overtightening REALLY stops belt squeal. Could the ringing be related to the alternator?.
Pete.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by skipperpete

.usually tightening the belt stops belt squeal and overtightening REALLY stops belt squeal. Could the ringing be related to the alternator?.
Pete.

By the same token, the ringing sound could be a shaft anode loose or a rope cutter singing. One of our props sings but the spare is fine.

Take a very long screw driver and use it like a stethoscope to see if you can track down were it is coming from. Touch pointy end all over the block gearbox and hull etc.

Pete

[bouncycastle]

@ pete7
Yes I will look into this idea
Best I can tell ringing noise comes from some part of the back of engine anywhere from top where valves are down to the rear big end and or gearbox

Ringing seems to take place engine in gear or in neutral??

The engine came with boat with this 2006 installed engine when I bought it in December 2019
Then covert 19 shut the boat yards in ireland for two months so could not lift engine fix the small leak the previous owner told me about and under pressure to let new boats in had too launch with engine leak .

I ran engine for about 20 hours and never saw any signs of any oil leak of any sort or any drop in oil so I figured the problem had gone or the previous owner had got it wrong ??

I took out all the 2 year old oil diesel fuel and binned it and serviced engine
New oil filter ,new oil ,new air filter replaced the broken alternator with suitable grey version 80 amp replaced alternator, new anode on prop but not yet the engine anode I ran engine on land connected to cold water to not create issues using road diesel fuel and all went well.

The oil leak best I can tell using multiple light sources several mirrors comes from a bolt or nut on the back starboard side of the sump
The oil seems to oooze out around the bolt head or nut head and drops into the bilges.


@ skipperpete and @compass790
Yes 4 litres of oil in the bilges with some water hurts the pocket and is messy

I can't swear that the oil is not coming from higher up the engine and works its way down the side of engine but all my checks showed this is less likely but the new clean oil is harder to see.




I found out the hard way where I normally dip the dip stick several times to get a good reading with the first oil alarm I only did two checks and both times different reading one said full and the second came up the normal 1/2 full so thought the alarm was something to do with tightening the alternator belt and started the engine for a few seconds to see if alarm went away .

The alarms on this old style Yanmar panel have no writing on them just four lights and the manual for boat showed another type of panel before I twigged it must be oil pressure light.


@ scubaseas
Yes got to buy the proper oil pressure kit solutions Yanmar oil low system sucks it tell you where you went wrong when its too late

Rechecked dip stick again several times and found no oil on dip stick

Best I can figure the dip sticks tube can keep some oil in it even when the sump is mostly empty because oil is thick sticky stuff in the dip stick tube and it takes several dips to force residual oil out of the dip stick tube mostly becuase it seems to angle horizontally for the last section of the dip stick.
Yanmars 2ym15 dip stick tubes also suck

@ compass790 and others
Zero oil on DIP stick from taking out remaining oil is about
Half a litre in sump .


Then I refilled the oil again to top mid levels more easy to see any drops in oil which showed nothing had been lost.
I ran the engine for half hour triple checked the oil no drop in oil level but after one hour running alarm came on with intermittent switching on off like the first time before it goes full on and switched off engine then.

Multible dips of the dip stick showed again no oil.

I have triple checked the oil filter which is above the leak no signs of issues

The new oil filter I pre oiled rubber gasket for oil filter before screwing on to not cause gasket to crumple up and was hand tightened carefully and hard never had oil filter leak on many oil changes of cars and boats I owned


Batteries were always full from marina electric and trickle chargers so normally the alternator will do little to no work and show 13 volts unless I gun the engine in which case when I go back to low throttle the alternator will continue to show north of 14 volts for some time exceeding 15 minutes and probably only supplies less than ~5 amps to battery for engine which is a normal new ~ 80 amp type for diesel cars .


From memory I think I took the alternators belt off ran the engine but still got the ringing noise.

The problem is If I was at sea I would not worry so much I would have my sails

I bought boat in boat yard on tidal river region with 15 miles of fast river water to get to the sea with no real suitable safe anchorages and the regular small cargo ships using deep channels on the river
The hazards on the river on the way to the sea means I absolutely need the engine and anchors to work

The engine is under proped best I can tell 12 inch by 9 inch three blade probably the first prop the original 8 HP 1968 engine had and not changed when the 13.5 HP Yanmar was put in in 2006.
Hard to get faster than 4 knots best I can tells with 3.5 ton 30 ft narrow beam fibre glass 3/4 keel spade rudder craft .

For the river I have to with the tidal current with the lack of useful power from engine

I should have known there was catch when the first owner said it only uses 1 litre an hour it goes three and half knots on 1/3 gas and four knots on 2\3 gas and brick walls after that .


The fuel delivery can't come until Monday

@ skipperpete

I will follow the other advise rig up a small can new fuel and try that trick on Sunday

@ wotname
British and Irish diesel fuel both road with ~7% bio fuel non marked type and heating types marked are normally made to be 55 for Cetane to my knowledge .

However many truck companies complain the new Irish diesel with Bio fuel is wrecking their engines so that was why I preferred to get the marked stuff in case there is some issue with bio fuel lubrication qualities or Cetane level issues of road diesel .

@ compass790
Most diesel engine were built before bio fuel regulations
Bio fuel issues have wrecked many diesel engines not originally made to run on bio fuel including some marine engines
Bio fuel Cetane levels drop when heated up in inline injector and then can return to tank the heated fuel several times when engine run at low speeds so some diesel fuel experts claim.
More simplex 2006 Yanmar 2ym15 engines can probably run on kero bio fuel and bio fuel mixed with petrol (gasoline Benzene ) but should run best on pure diesel which can still be bought in some parts of the communist controlled EU who brought in against transport companies advise the 7% bio fuel regulations costing billions in broken diesel engines mostly turbos and high pressure pumps and injectors .

The old style pre 2000 diesel engines are mostly tolerant of bio fuels

Another forum suggested hot carbon deposits can be igniting the fuel too soon and causing knock but I thought that was something that only happened to spark ignition petrol ( gasoline Benzene ) engines ??

Any ideas on that possibility ??


It isn't unknown for some fuel suppliers to cut the diesel fuel with high kero contents at 40 cents a liter for kero and 60 cents a litre for marked diesel on a forty five litredelivery that can make a few extra sponduliks along with the delivery charge of 30 extra cents per litre .
How ever in this case if the kero content is too high I don't think it was intensionally done to save a few cents on 45 litres but who knows ??

I know one friends 1990 type Toyata Carina non turbo 2 litre diesel that went 200,000 miles using home heating kero no ill effects.

However well old type primitive diesel engine can run with pure Kero its a high temperature fuel burn with low lubrication qualities unknown Cetane and can reputedly diesel experts say can grill a modern inline injection type diesel engine with a Turbo and its high pressure fuel pumps in no time.

Modern diesel engine can with suitable modifications be made to use Kero and is seen in use mostly in electric power generators

@ skipperpete
I too am confused why I got belt screech when I tightened the belt and it went away when the belt was loosened up the belt again .
Because the battery is new and 80 amp alternator and mostly fully charged the alternator won't drag so much and supply very few amps .
I will check why that happened another post another time .

Thanks for all your inputs it gives me more possibilities

Dermot

[a64pilot]

A few comments.
1. I’ve been around oil burners for a while and have never, ever had anything internal ding like a bell, hollow knock yes, ding, no.
2. You need to cut open and inspect the oil filter, there are YouTube videos telling you how I’m sure, your primarily looking for bearing metal.
3. Too high of a Cetane is highly improbable, Fist we need to understand what Cetane is, people think of it like Octane but it’s not, it’s actually different, high octane means hard to ignite and slow burning, high Cetane means easier to ignite and quicker burning. Pretty much the opposite.
Higher Cetane is usually better, easier starting, less smoke etc.
4. Sticking valves are possible, but they rarely make contact with a piston more than a couple of times before the keepers fall off the valve stem and the valve falls down into the cylinder and it’s all over. Plus I can’t imagine a valve ringing like a bell.
5. Once you inspect the oil filter an determine there is no excess metal, or metal at all really, then try a jug of fresh Diesel with its own hose, can’t hurt, may as well eliminate that possibility.
However I believe you have something else going on, like a loose dust shield if these motors have one for example, most likely caused by the work you did to stop the oil leak is my bet.

Here is one link, I didn’t watch it due to time and bandwidth, it likely shows an oil filter cutter, but you can do it other ways, try not to fill it with metal of course.
https://youtu.be/RkYtcJLFMGs

[Compass790]

I say again you need that mechanical oil pressure gauge.
From your description of the engine oil alarm going off after 1 hr is due to the fact that the oil pressure drops as the oil heats up it's viscosity drops & it means your oil pressure will be below 5 psi approx. The rule of thumb is 10 psi per 1000 rpm is minimum oil pressure. You risk further damage running it below those figures.
Even if you do the fuel that will not likely change. You need to find out what the oil pressure is.
Just as an aside the engine isn't overheating is it?
You can try putting a fibre/nylon washer under the head of the bolt thats leaking oil & put PTFE tape on the threads. I have just used the thread tape & wound up a ring just under the bolt head to make like an o-ring seal. It works well if you get what I'm saying.

As for prop sizing you can google vicprop calculator, seems to work well if you input the right data.
Hope that helps

[bouncycastle]

@ compass790

Thanks compass 790 if the leak gets worse then will try that bolt Teflon tape idea and will look that vicprop
calculator.
I did over the years lot of model planes so know how to use prop calculator for air so will look the difference with water.

@a64pilot

Interesting youtube video from aviation worlds solutions
I can copy this on Monday when I can buy new oil filter and do jug of new fuel method.

I will look this idea of engine covers I removed the alternators belt protection guard made of plastic don't think it can make ding ding sound .

I am not fimilar with about to break up big end noises but assumed they are more of knocking noise.

This engine was not used for five years by previous owner but the owner before that crossed the Atlantic pond both ways and was like me a live aboard type son this might be a north of 5000 hour engine crawling with metal bits from many years of use from ~2006 onwards ???

Thanks for the info can't do much until Monday then need the fuel and oil filter

Dermot

[Compass790]

Can you make a recording of the noise & post it for the hive to listen to?
The fact that it's a high hours, small motor makes it even more likely that the oil pressure is an issue.
Yes a knackered big end is a definite knocking sound.
Your prop is too small, from memory, our YSM 8 ( 7hp continuous ) is a 12x8 prop.