Ding like bell sound like pinking from diesel Yanmar 2M15 2006 version after low oi

[NorthernMac]

I’d install a proper oil pressure instrument

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ts-235636.html

[skipperpete]

Hey Dermot, 10 seconds is a lot of cranking time to start, you might have a problem with the glow plugs.
Back to your water in the oil issue, given that you had a bilge flooding there’s a possibility of water entering the engine at the front or rear crankshaft oil seals or possibly the dipstick tube ( unlikely unless the tube is loose where it joins the engine). Check the gearbox oil as well after a high bilge event!
The other likely culprit is the vent loop or siphon breaker, if your engine has one.
Check the coolant tank level, if it’s empty, that might indicate a source other than salt water.
Close the seacock!
It seems that you have quite a bit to sort out so stay calm and work methodically through the issues. Deal with the water in the oil problem first, then the oil leak.
Good luck[emoji1374]

[a64pilot]

Please don’t be offended, none of us were born Master mechanics, we all had to learn.
But I think at this point you need to hire a good mechanic to get to the bottom of whatever is going on before you lose the boat or the motor. Pay attention and ask questions so you learn.
Plus if at all possible if you didn’t get a survey before you bought the boat, Perhaps you should, it will generate a list of what needs fixing and it should prioritize the faults found.

[bouncycastle]

@ skipperpete

First thing I closed the cooling water sea cock.

I am more a weekend mechanic for pre 1995 non electronic control cars to keep my junkers on the road and a outboard engine repair type and and electric engine type. So when all else fails after I tear the engines apart I get a mechanic to fix the parts i cant fix like a broken engine block or head skim or installing engine with the big engine hoists they have.

I sorta know my limits what takes me five days to do the mechanic will do it in less than one day.
Therefore I don't do modern electronic engines and I do not do speed fixing unless I am drifting onto the rocks.
.

I am not in any emergency hurry before September and if needed will just opt to get a tow out into the ocean and set sail without engine in September if needed.
Back to solar panel and candles are if necessary .

There has been two oil changes since the deep bilge water event. If water came in with the deep bilge water event unless it stayed at bottom of the oil sump for several hours engine run i suspect I would have seen milky engine oil before that

My Guess is there was rapid recent water to oil mix and something like elbow mixxer or head gasket would do that.

However maybe water stays at bottom of oil sump during engine runs open to that idea and it came through crankshaft seals . If so how to get at the crank shaft seals especially the rear crank shaft seal with the gear box in the way ???

Water coolant bottle did not change in the bilge water event but has now changed after the oily water event . That is something I have to look into why it did that going from half full to 20% overfull



I checked the gear box oil it seems clean no indication of water but way overfilled with oil possibly over 200%
I will look to extract the excess oil hopefully gearbox is not half water half oil .
I don't think there is water ingress and I suspect the owner before overfilled the gear box.

Some marine engines it seems share the oil from engine sump with gear box but I don't see any pipe work to show this is the case with this 2YM15 engine???

The cost of the elbow is some £200 or closer to £250 delivered to Ireland and haven't found clone type cheaper.
I know from my memory there is a clone version for some yanmars in stainless steel but haven't found it .

Today will look the entire system to try to find water to oil links

@ a64pilot
The owner was drastic hurry to sell before boat yard fees hit him for the sixth year I'm storage so for cheapo cost wasn't going to be anything like a survey just basic visual check and pay the cash.

The work schedule to do repairs needed due to start in mid February were impacted with boat yard closure from march 15 to may 15 with the Carona virus close down . The boat had to be out of the yard in June first due to over booking for boat repairs stacked up during yard closeure. This meant launch and go down the river to the marina when not fully checked out or incurr huge penalty costs to stay in the boat yard beyond the normal booking time of winter
The boat had been sitting possibly engine not winterized for five years but engine serviced by me and running for several hours showed no signs of problems.

Toilet valve was unluky oversight I closed it but it had broken into two parts and let water inside through hidden crack in valve and over a day when not onboard the boat the crack opened up and slowly filled the bilges .
I was able to get dingy alongside and replace the entire through firing with new fitting when tide went out working fast .

The rigging and sails seem to be good quality probably new replacement in furling Genoa and good condition slab reef main sail .

The issues are the engine and the fact I am in fast flow estuary with many sand banks so its either fix the engine or get towed out as it is too risky to sail out .

A mechanic will be last resort if I have to extract the engine from the engine bearers as it is too heavy for me to do alone
I am certain I do not know the putting the engine back in correctly for the straight lining up process is beyond my abilities so that's gonna be a mechanic if needed

I am hopefull the elbow or head gasket are the water source into oil as I can get at them easy enough .

If its the crank shaft seals in rear or some hole in engine block I don't think I can fix that without mechanic to weld the engine block or remove engine

Money spent on mechanics will dent money funds for stuff like liferafts and AIS and other things that can allow me to go offshore to blue water

These inboards are basically a big financial hole to throw money at until you learn to fix them before you need them when your drifting onto some shore line .

All I knew about Yanmar before this is they are a mechanics wet dream with steel parts that corrode cost a bomb to replace and makes boat mechanics smile as money goes cha ching for repairs .



Dermot

[skipperpete]

Thanks for the update. Don’t spend too much time worrying about my mention of the front and rear crankshaft seals, I suggested them as a possible place for water to get in if they were submerged... lip seals work best at keeping oil in and not so well at keeping water out. The expansion tank filling up is puzzling. Does it get cold enough to freeze water where you are?is there antifreeze in the engine?
Try using the preheat next time you go to start er up, see if that reduces the cranking time.

[bouncycastle]

Cheapest cloned mix elbow is USA made using stainless steel ~$160 ~€145 ~£135
https://hdimarine.net/product/gms-st...-mixing-elbow/

however postage import tax will be more but average price UK is ~£250 but delivery might be faster but postage and gasket can be extra

https://www.bottomlinemarine.com/pro...530_3307.shtml

I need to figure a test for elbow maybe a hose pipe connection would test for leak rather than remove part which might be functioning correctly
@ skipperpete interesting info on crank case seals ..

thanks

[NorthernMac]

Originally Posted by bouncycastle

@ skipperpete

First thing I closed the cooling water sea cock.

I am more a weekend mechanic for pre 1995 non electronic control cars to keep my junkers on the road and a outboard engine repair type and and electric engine type. So when all else fails after I tear the engines apart I get a mechanic to fix the parts i cant fix like a broken engine block or head skim or installing engine with the big engine hoists they have.

I sorta know my limits what takes me five days to do the mechanic will do it in less than one day.
Therefore I don't do modern electronic engines and I do not do speed fixing unless I am drifting onto the rocks.
.

I am not in any emergency hurry before September and if needed will just opt to get a tow out into the ocean and set sail without engine in September if needed.
Back to solar panel and candles are if necessary .

There has been two oil changes since the deep bilge water event. If water came in with the deep bilge water event unless it stayed at bottom of the oil sump for several hours engine run i suspect I would have seen milky engine oil before that

My Guess is there was rapid recent water to oil mix and something like elbow mixxer or head gasket would do that.

However maybe water stays at bottom of oil sump during engine runs open to that idea and it came through crankshaft seals . If so how to get at the crank shaft seals especially the rear crank shaft seal with the gear box in the way ???

Water coolant bottle did not change in the bilge water event but has now changed after the oily water event . That is something I have to look into why it did that going from half full to 20% overfull



I checked the gear box oil it seems clean no indication of water but way overfilled with oil possibly over 200%
I will look to extract the excess oil hopefully gearbox is not half water half oil .
I don't think there is water ingress and I suspect the owner before overfilled the gear box.

Some marine engines it seems share the oil from engine sump with gear box but I don't see any pipe work to show this is the case with this 2YM15 engine???

The cost of the elbow is some £200 or closer to £250 delivered to Ireland and haven't found clone type cheaper.
I know from my memory there is a clone version for some yanmars in stainless steel but haven't found it .

Today will look the entire system to try to find water to oil links

@ a64pilot
The owner was drastic hurry to sell before boat yard fees hit him for the sixth year I'm storage so for cheapo cost wasn't going to be anything like a survey just basic visual check and pay the cash.

The work schedule to do repairs needed due to start in mid February were impacted with boat yard closure from march 15 to may 15 with the Carona virus close down . The boat had to be out of the yard in June first due to over booking for boat repairs stacked up during yard closeure. This meant launch and go down the river to the marina when not fully checked out or incurr huge penalty costs to stay in the boat yard beyond the normal booking time of winter
The boat had been sitting possibly engine not winterized for five years but engine serviced by me and running for several hours showed no signs of problems.

Toilet valve was unluky oversight I closed it but it had broken into two parts and let water inside through hidden crack in valve and over a day when not onboard the boat the crack opened up and slowly filled the bilges .
I was able to get dingy alongside and replace the entire through firing with new fitting when tide went out working fast .

The rigging and sails seem to be good quality probably new replacement in furling Genoa and good condition slab reef main sail .

The issues are the engine and the fact I am in fast flow estuary with many sand banks so its either fix the engine or get towed out as it is too risky to sail out .

A mechanic will be last resort if I have to extract the engine from the engine bearers as it is too heavy for me to do alone
I am certain I do not know the putting the engine back in correctly for the straight lining up process is beyond my abilities so that's gonna be a mechanic if needed

I am hopefull the elbow or head gasket are the water source into oil as I can get at them easy enough .

If its the crank shaft seals in rear or some hole in engine block I don't think I can fix that without mechanic to weld the engine block or remove engine

Money spent on mechanics will dent money funds for stuff like liferafts and AIS and other things that can allow me to go offshore to blue water

These inboards are basically a big financial hole to throw money at until you learn to fix them before you need them when your drifting onto some shore line .

All I knew about Yanmar before this is they are a mechanics wet dream with steel parts that corrode cost a bomb to replace and makes boat mechanics smile as money goes cha ching for repairs .



Dermot

If it's anything like the QM the transmission doesn't share oil with the engine, in fact it calls for a different oil all together.






The Yanmars are great, diesel inboards are excellent, but it's like anything else, if it's abused it will get expensive

[bouncycastle]

web site exhaustelbow.com also sells the stainless steel unit for Yanmar 2ym15 for ~ $160 international shipping .
or ~$150 domestic USA address

Irish post like many countries has USA post collection service costs about ~€20 or ~€16 to repost to Ireland
Then there is costoms paper work charge ~€11 Euros followed by ~23% Vat on top of all charges works out for stainless steel USA version at about ~€ 220 versus normal steel version ~ about € 250 to ~280 from UK .

There is YouTube for how to take off elbow unit but requires new Gasket cost about ~€10 to refit it if elbow is still working well


https://youtu.be/8JgBpqWi-6A

@skipperpete
The boat for five years was left without winterizing best I can tell sea water or fresh water still in pipes from impeller region .
Ireland over that time 2015 to 2020 in the region would some winter nights freeze down to minus 5

I looked for ice damage did not find any

The heat exchanger was before oil mix event yesterday anti freeze mix. The refill bottle went from near minimum to over full so now might have excess water mixed into anti freeze or maybe oil haven't checked it .
The Main heat exchanger seems to still be anti freeze

Its the boating life if something can go wrong it will and always in threes or more

Thanks for inputs so far

[bouncycastle]

Today I looked all the engine

Best I can tell there has been no detectable change in then he at exchanger anti freeze type fluid in ether then he at exchanger or the refill bottle.
There was stains in heat exchanger refill bottle that gave an illusion the bottle gained fluid.

The Elbow looks externally to be in very good condition.
I suspect it is the stainless steel version .

I am becoming of the opinion that there is only two ways the water got in

The most likely way is water came in through crank shaft seal and sat in bottom of the sump less likly as regular checks of oil showed no indication water milky oil or similar

The other way is the water came up the exhaust pipe system on the night with strong winds and small waves in the river system at marina .

To test this out I will check the entire exhaust system.
Then I will oil up engine and run it for short periods without cooling water to the heat exchanger and look for water ingress to oil from heat exchanger

If it passes those tests I can assume the anti Freeze mixed water from heat exchanger is not the culprit.

If I see oil leak from head region I will know I have some sort of head gasket issues

Then I will do tests with cooling water to enginebtonsee if that impacts the oil .

If it passes these tests then it would indicate the the origin of the water into fuel is more likely to be water that stays at the bottom of the sump for long periods not mixing with oil until upset for some unknown reason .

If others have better ideas let me know


On erratic oil pressure issues one car YouTube mechanic says that many petrol heads will add some 2 quarts of automatic transmission fluid to oil run the engine for short time and this cleans out oil gunge from engine .Then they replace oil with normal oil and they claim the large amounts of detergents in automatic transmission fluid this often cures oil pressure reading that are erratic with cleaning up oil gunge in the engine


Thanks

[Madehn]

Water is not going to sit at the bottom of a sump in a running engine and not mix with the crankcase oil. I don't believe this is a possibility-- do you have a anti siphon loop in your exhaust hose-- if not then I suspect you got water from the wave action you mentioned. This is relatively easy to install and very necessary before you put out to sea-- if you got water in from that and escaped with no major damage you were very very lucky.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Madehn

Water is not going to sit at the bottom of a sump in a running engine and not mix with the crankcase oil. I don't believe this is a possibility-- ..........

Exactly, especially as the oil pick up for the oil pump is very low in the sump. Any significant water in the sump will be picked up and pushed through the engine by the oil pump in no time at all.

[skipperpete]

Bouncycastle you need to rationalize the faultfinding process. Initially the problem was that the entire sump full of oil was lost in 1 hour of idling at the dock..... and then the same thing again a couple of days later. You happily solved the unusual sound incorrectly attributed to damage from loss of lube oil so that’s good progress but still no firm idea on the source of the substantial oil leak.
There remains the issue of the gearbox oil level.
Then came the entirely unexpected water in the oil issue so I guess now you’re looking for a totally new and unrelated problem while still having no clear idea of where the lube oil is leaking from. Both of your engine problems are capable of causing fairly serious damage so you need to proceed with caution and maybe postpone your departure from the marina until all the outstanding problems have been dealt with and your confidence in the machinery restored.
A few respectful final suggestions. Learn what a vent loop is and know how crucial it is. Get comfortable with changing raw water pump impellers and vee belts. Have your ground tackle ready to deploy. Most of all, enjoy cruising!
Pete.

[Compass790]

What skipperpete said.
FIRST find & fix the oil leak & remove excess gearbox oil.
Best if you get the service manual even if you have to buy from Yanmar agent. It will be worth it.
The outside of the exhaust elbow can look ok, it's the inside that is your critical area. However the possiblity of getting water from the chop needs to be looked at before other causes.
As skipperpete said 10 secs is too long to get a start so if you have glow plugs check them & also for fuel & or air leaks.
There is a fair bit for you to go through before even contemplating removing the engine.
I really think you need the service manual.

[OloteleMtn]

Worn valves and seats can also cause difficult starts from poor compression, as can sticking fuel injectors. Methodical troubleshooting saves a lot of unproductive effort.

[parkstone bay]

I suggest that the use of differing fuels has nothing to do with it. I've been putting road diesel into my Bukh 24 ever since I had it (15 years) - no problems there. Reason: (a) road diesel is fresher and cleaner than marina diesel (b) under the blessed EU rules, as I don't have central heating, I'd have to pay MORE for marina fuel than at local Tesco.
Question: Was the oil dipstick up to the mark when you checked it before starting her?