Actual experience: Torqeedo or OceanVolt saildrives in multihulls

[Flobble]

Anyone know where I can find actual, real-life, first-hand experience with Torqueedo or OceanVolt saildrives in multihulls?

I'm aware of Moonwave (Torqeedo), Aventura Zero (OceanVolt) and the new Torqeedo/Excess co-marketing earlier this week. But none of that is truly independent or properly detailed. There's precious little reliable data out there to use for a decision.

I have a new fast cruising cat on order, and am thinking about which propulsion system to specify.

I'm interested real, personal experience (not third hand anecdote ), links to the same, or people I can reach out to.

1. What speed do people actually see, at what power levels, in what conditions, in specific boats?
2. Has regeneration lived up to expectations? What output do people actually see, at what speeds, in what conditions.
3. I have a friend with a torqeedo pod under a lightweight planing monohull. When the boat is moving fast, the vibration under regeneration is so bad he has to turn it off for fear it's going to shake the boat apart. Anyone else seen similar issues?
4. How noisy is it in regeneration mode, especially when speeds are variable when surging/surfing?

Thanks all!

[jmh2002]

Are you subscribed to this thread? https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...at-230144.html

There is a lot of general info and discussion there too. BigBeakie (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ie-145009.html) is quite knowledgeable in that thread and is also going electric on his 50ft cat.

But you are right, finding actual, real-life, first-hand experience with all electric setups seems difficult, and what can be found is often not 100% positive - Moonwave is probably the exception, and that of course is a Gunboat with a money no object propulsion setup.

Have you also considered a parallel hybrid such as Hybrid Marine / Beta Marine offer?

That might be the best of all worlds at the moment, especially when price point and range are part of the decision.

Antares and HH cats are starting to offer that as a factory option now. It seems like a well proven solution.



EDIT: yes now I remember that you are in the Jimmy Cornell thread already

[Flobble]

Thanks JMH

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Are you subscribed to this thread? https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...at-230144.html

Yes, as you identified, I'm watching with interest.

There is a lot of general info and discussion there too. BigBeakie (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ie-145009.html) is quite knowledgeable in that thread and is also going electric on his 50ft cat.

Will investigate - thanks.

But you are right, finding actual, real-life, first-hand experience with all electric setups seems difficult, and what can be found is often not 100% positive - Moonwave is probably the exception, and that of course is a Gunboat with a money no object propulsion setup.

The other issue with Moonwave is that the early integration was done by a company called Moonwave Systems which was subsequently acquired by Torqeedo. So while I'm really excited by what they report, it's hard to see the feedback as independent unfortunately.

Have you also considered a parallel hybrid such as Hybrid Marine / Beta Marine offer?

That might be the best of all worlds at the moment, especially when price point and range are part of the decision.

Antares and HH cats are starting to offer that as a factory option now. It seems like a well proven solution.

Two thoughts here:
1. I need a saildrive solution. The boat layout doesn't accommodate a shaft drive.
2. I would (if feasible) prefer to optimise for electrical efficiency, and minimise the number of fossil fuels & combustion engines on board. Parallel hybrids may be the worst of both worlds rather than the best, but I still have more to learn.

[chris14679]

Originally Posted by Flobble

Anyone know where I can find actual, real-life, first-hand experience with Torqueedo or OceanVolt saildrives in multihulls?

I'm aware of Moonwave (Torqeedo), Aventura Zero (OceanVolt) and the new Torqeedo/Excess co-marketing earlier this week. But none of that is truly independent or properly detailed. There's precious little reliable data out there to use for a decision.

I have a new fast cruising cat on order, and am thinking about which propulsion system to specify.

I'm interested real, personal experience (not third hand anecdote ), links to the same, or people I can reach out to.

1. What speed do people actually see, at what power levels, in what conditions, in specific boats?
2. Has regeneration lived up to expectations? What output do people actually see, at what speeds, in what conditions.
3. I have a friend with a torqeedo pod under a lightweight planing monohull. When the boat is moving fast, the vibration under regeneration is so bad he has to turn it off for fear it's going to shake the boat apart. Anyone else seen similar issues?
4. How noisy is it in regeneration mode, especially when speeds are variable when surging/surfing?

Thanks all!

The Oceanvolt is significantly more expensive than the torqeedo and a very different approach. It has the motor inside the hull (audible and requires cooling) whereas the Torqeedos up to 10kw have the motor outside the hull where it is silenced and cooled by the sea water outside it and doesn't require a cooling water pump etc.

Although the Oceanvolt is normally MUCH more expensive, we have a lightly used Oceanvolt SD10 in near new condition in stock for a fraction of the new price so PM me if interested. It's in New Zealand but we can ship it anywhere.

Regarding the torqeedo regeneration vibration ssue, assuming you're talking about a Cruise 2,4 or 10 pod then there is a planetary gearbox behind the prop which allows a small high revving motor to be used and geared down to turn a big prop. That means there's a lot of resistance if you try to turn the motor using the prop compared to a direct dive design.

A direct drive unit from another manufacturer such as Combi doesn't have that resistance from the gearbox so it will be much quieter both in propulsion and regen and won;t be subject to that judder. The downside of direct drive is it requires a lower RPM motor which is fatter and heavier.

Torqeedo are switching to direct drive in their lower powered models, the gearbox was a nice innovation to reduce the pod size but in the end smooth, silent running is a higher priority.

regeneration is never going to work well without a special propeller though. Oceanvolt are innovating with the servoprop to resolve this but it's rather expensive and complex. The Brunton's Ecostar is IMHO a better choice, it may not be quite as efficient on regen but still much better than a fixed prop, robust and based on the well proven Autoprop.

Parallel hybrids are almost always the best option for a cruising yacht but not compatible with a saildrive. On a catamaran you install a diesel with a parallel hybrid on one side and go all electric on the other side. The batteries there balance the diesel on the hybrid side. Works really well. You should strongly consider switching to shaft drive and looking at going hybrid on one side

Chris - electricboat.co.nz

[Flobble]

Originally Posted by chris14679

Regarding the torqeedo regeneration vibration ssue, assuming you're talking about a Cruise 2,4 or 10 pod then there is a planetary gearbox behind the prop which allows a small high revving motor to be used and geared down to turn a big prop. That means there's a lot of resistance if you try to turn the motor using the prop compared to a direct drive design.

Thanks Chris - I wasn't aware of the planetary gearbox. That would certainly have an efficiency impact, but doesn't directly explain the vibration problem. We don't really know, but it could come from rotational imbalances by design/manufacture or eddy shedding off the prop at speed.

You should strongly consider switching to shaft drive and looking at going hybrid on one side

Not feasible for me unfortunately. The cabin/bulkhead layout is based around a saildrive, so that's what I have to work with.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Flobble

Thanks JMH
Two thoughts here:
1. I need a saildrive solution. The boat layout doesn't accommodate a shaft drive.
2. I would (if feasible) prefer to optimise for electrical efficiency, and minimise the number of fossil fuels & combustion engines on board. Parallel hybrids may be the worst of both worlds rather than the best, but I still have more to learn.

I can understand that.

It seems that the answer to that is very dependant on the actual calculations for a particular boat, light/medium/heavy displacement, sailing ability, it's cruising area, and how it will be used.

It all 'works' on Moonwave, but they are quite far at the extreme of most of those points - PLUS adding the budget on top for the very best solution.

The balance of all of those points may not be anywhere close to the same for many other boats and owners.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by chris14679

Chris - electricboat.co.nz

Nice info, thanks Chris

[EWOL Props]

Originally Posted by Flobble

Anyone know where I can find actual, real-life, first-hand experience with Torqueedo or OceanVolt saildrives in multihulls?

I'm aware of Moonwave (Torqeedo), Aventura Zero (OceanVolt) and the new Torqeedo/Excess co-marketing earlier this week. But none of that is truly independent or properly detailed. There's precious little reliable data out there to use for a decision.

I have a new fast cruising cat on order, and am thinking about which propulsion system to specify.

I'm interested real, personal experience (not third hand anecdote ), links to the same, or people I can reach out to.

1. What speed do people actually see, at what power levels, in what conditions, in specific boats?
2. Has regeneration lived up to expectations? What output do people actually see, at what speeds, in what conditions.
3. I have a friend with a torqeedo pod under a lightweight planing monohull. When the boat is moving fast, the vibration under regeneration is so bad he has to turn it off for fear it's going to shake the boat apart. Anyone else seen similar issues?
4. How noisy is it in regeneration mode, especially when speeds are variable when surging/surfing?

Thanks all!

What is the prop model installed on that Torqeedo having vibration issue ? I am not interested in the brand but the type of prop: fixed, folding, feathering, automatic

[Flobble]

The Torqeedo pods use a Flexofold folding prop (see https://media.torqeedo.com/downloads..._v13_p4000.pdf)

[timbalero3]

I sail the former gunboat G4, timbalero3. I can tell you from my experience this week. The boat has an ocean volt motor 8k. It weights 2300kg. It does a surreal 1.8 knts in flat water no wind at 2kw. I have to think there is a problem. To be fair, the boat has torqueedo batteries, 2 new 5k kw. They just warranty those. Even thought they were outside by a few days. Thank you.
Worst is the fact that the motor kills the battery at 2k watts in less than 2 hours. As for regeneration, I saw very little at 6 knts. The boat has a folding prop. It does have a sign warning to retract engine above 12 knts of boat speed.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by Flobble

1. I need a saildrive solution. The boat layout doesn't accommodate a shaft drive.

2. I would (if feasible) prefer to optimise for electrical efficiency, and minimise the number of fossil fuels & combustion engines on board. Parallel hybrids may be the worst of both worlds rather than the best, but I still have more to learn.

Your two requirements contradict each other unfortunately. neither shaft or sail drive is the optimal solution. Generally speaking, larger propellers are more efficient. Your prop diameter should be the beam of the hull to achieve 90% efficiency.

Typical sail drive/inboard are < 40% efficiency from shaft to thrust (not counting engine,
or mechanical friction losses etc) This is a huge shortcoming.

I have built for my 33ft boat a 32in diameter outboard powered from bicycle hub motor. This is a $200 solution with higher efficiency (for my boat) than torqeedo 1000 which is optimized for dingy. 250-300 watts for 3 knots. For a 50ft catamaran, you should look at twin paramotor props with 48inch diameter at 500 rpm and slower. You could go 3 knots using 1kw. This will get you half the power consumption of oceanvolt/torqeedo solutions which are really designed to push smaller boats a lot faster and the propeller is just too small for larger boats.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by chris14679

The Oceanvolt is significantly more expensive than the torqeedo and a very different approach. It has the motor inside the hull (audible and requires cooling) whereas the Torqeedos up to 10kw have the motor outside the hull where it is silenced and cooled by the sea water outside it and doesn't require a cooling water pump etc.

Keep in mind, an electric motor in the pod gets soaked in salt water when the seals fail.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Keep in mind, an electric motor in the pod gets soaked in salt water when the seals fail.

Same could be said for the whole boat with a shaft drive, no?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

Same could be said for the whole boat with a shaft drive, no?

Assuming you have a bilge pump a bit of dripping is a nuisance but unlikely to short out the motor.

I've not seen a pod system with a bilge pump, so when it starts leaking, shorting out the motor is pretty much a guarantee.

[chris14679]

Originally Posted by timbalero3

I sail the former gunboat G4, timbalero3. I can tell you from my experience this week. The boat has an ocean volt motor 8k. It weights 2300kg. It does a surreal 1.8 knts in flat water no wind at 2kw. I have to think there is a problem. To be fair, the boat has torqueedo batteries, 2 new 5k kw. They just warranty those. Even thought they were outside by a few days. Thank you.
Worst is the fact that the motor kills the battery at 2k watts in less than 2 hours. As for regeneration, I saw very little at 6 knts. The boat has a folding prop. It does have a sign warning to retract engine above 12 knts of boat speed.

This doesn't add up. If you have two torqeedo Power-48-5000 batteries that's 10kwh of capacity. At 2kw power consumption the batteries will last more than four hours. Either your true power consumption is more than 2kw (put a DC current clamp meter around the battery cable to check) or there's an issue with your batteries. What do you mean by "kills the batteries"? Do they indicate 0% charge? Do they automatically shut down or does the oceanvolt system automatically shut down, or is it just a low battery warning on the oceanvolt display?

If you are getting only 2 hours runtime it could mean only one of your batteries is working and the other one is shut down. Torqeedo network needs to be properly set up with terminators etc. so that the Torqeedo "on" button turns on both batteries.

Maybe the Oceanvolt system is not set up correctly for the Torqeedo batteries. The Oceanvolt display could be telling you the batteries are empty when they are actually still half full because it is set up for the voltage levels of a different brand of batteries and can't communicate with the Torqeedo network. You need to connect a Torqeedo display to the battery network to get accurate battery status. Torqeedo displays are normally only supplied with Torqeedo motors though.

A 2.4 ton yacht will normally get close to full hull speed with a 3kw motor but this is a big boat for the weight and the foils must create a lot of drag in displacement mode so you might need a bit more. You'll certainly need more going into a headwind.

I don't know what motor you think you have, I have never seen a retractable Oceanvolt motor and they don't have a model called the "8k". Are you sure it's Oceanvolt?