Voyage 430/440 vs Leopard 4300/4500

[tami]

Thanks for this thread...

Would anyone speak to bridgedeck clearance?

When I look at the Voyage, the bridgedeck looks very low to the water and I wonder how well they go in sea.

As a suggestion, I don't think I see you mention Catana. I really hadn't considered them until I found out that two multihull mavens (Charlie Ogletree and Gavin le Sueur) have Catanas. That speaks volumes to me.

[D&D]

We're caught between talus and ggray on the targa (or arch) traveller. Really like the sheet-free envrionment and walk-thru transom below the traveller, but recognise too the negative impacts on trim and access to the traveller and weight, all important issues underway. My mind wanders back though to a comment elsewhere on this Forum (by Mudbug, as I recall his 'handle') that cruising life is primarily spent 'on the hook'. Anyway, the presence or absence of a targa traveller wouldn't be a deal-breaker for us.

It seems we can all at least agree that it's about priorities and compromises...and about (for us and SurfNRG at least) getting back out there ASAP!

Cheers to all.

[paulrack]

I am not sure why you are so anti Volvo's, I have just done a lot of research on a new cat I am building. Although my current mono has a Yanmar I have gone for Volvo's on the cat for the following reasons, I seem to have found as many anti Volvo and Yanmar posts, the volvo's are lighter and the main reason the number of problems with the yanmar saildrives. At our club there are so many Yanmar saildrives failing and needing to be replaced. The downside is the expense of the Volvo spares.

I would be inclined to say get the right boat as long as the engines are in good nick

[talus]

Great discussion.

D&D - Thanks. As for the Seawind, I have never seen one in the flesh but I do like the layout. I have read some comments on poor visibility from the helm of the 1160, whereas the older 1200 helm was better positioned.

The posted video was a Voyage 440 Charter version (as far as I can tell). I just put it up for an example of how large those cats are.


ggray - fully agree with you on the ability to trim the main. However, for us, looking for a liveaboard, the compromise in space makes it a minus. I will say that the Lagoon setup seems much cleaner than the FP setup.

SurfNRG - I forgot the St. Francis 44. I haven't seen one in person. I do like the layout including the galley down. I'm not totally sold on the engine location and from what I can see I wonder if they would be in the way while transiting through the hulls. Otherwise, used ones seem fairly rare to the market.

As for the Volvo/Yanmar debate. Again, either/or is not a deal breaker. I would just prefer Yanmar from a parts availability standpoint. Here in Canada, where Volvo is well support, there are still considerable parts delays.

tami - I didn't even get into the whole bridge deck thing. It's an enormous can of worms and I really see no point to it. As far as I am concerned any current production cat has sufficient clearance. Would I want more? Sure, but there will be a tradeoff.

The Cantana's are nice but I consider them a "performance" oriented boat (pretty much all cats with dagarboards fall into this performance category). I feel the daggerboards are a negative for my intended use. They are going to require attention/handling during tacks/jibes and their slots take up interior space. Again just my feelings, but if hard core sailing is your thing, you would like a cat that can point a bit better, and you really like the reduced draft - daggerboards are great. From my liveaboard perspective it's not an option I'm looking for.

paulrack - The Volvo/Yanmar issue won't break the deal. Like you said the "right boat" will win out. The well maintained boats are obvious and are standouts when you are looking.

[D&D]

Great discussion indeed. Thanks again for setting us all off on this tack talus!

A bit further on daggerboards now that they're mentioned, the reduced draft 'advantage' is a mirage IMHO. Unless you have outboard engines -- That's a definite 'no' in our list -- daggerboards up leaves your drive train exposed, whether a shaft or a sail drive. Taking the exposed drive train into consideration means not all that much better draft (if any) than compared to a mini-keel AND a lot worse consequences if you happen to either misjudge the steep-to or find that 'rare' and uncharted shoal or rock.

[D&D]

Again reviewing the growing wealth of info in this thread, I am reminded to ask for views out there about props behind the rudders. I noted that (to us unusual) setup being mentioned by talus as applied to the Lagoon 380 and I also recently heard the same applied to the FP Mahe 36.

Anyone care to comment on experience(s) or further views about the prop situated behind the rudder? Although I freely admit my experience will be a lot less than many on this forum, both my (limited) experience and my maritime training suggest the prop ought to be forward of the rudder for added helm response at slow ahead, but perhaps the rudder forward enables greater ability to use the rudder when making sternway??

Any comments? Also, anyone know of other vessels with the prop behind the rudder? It's not an arrangement that is highlighted (or even revealed all that well) by the factories for either the Lagoon 380 or the Mahe 36, leaving one to wonder about its advantages...

[talus]

D&D - I had not even thought about the exposure of the saildrives/prop on a cat with daggerboards. The way I see it, its not a question of "if I'll touch bottom" but "when I touch bottom". As for touching bottom, I would give preference to those cats that can handle drying out on the sand if required.

One cat I forgot to add is the Lagoon 42 TPI. It has the benefits of being US built but will most likely suffer from some headroom and greenhouse issue. Here is a nice website for a sold 42' TPI Lagoon 42 catamaran for sale Lagoon 42 TPI Looks like whoever picked up this one got a nice, loved cat.

[D&D]

talus -- If you haven't seen it already, you perhaps ought to look at Broken Promises by Voyage Yacht | My Yacht Lawsuit where a Voyage Catamaran buyer catalogues his frustration(s) and -- I assume -- evidence he is using in the process of suing Voyage for warranty issues (including structural issues) purportedly not addressed (adequately or at all) by Voyage. The various links suggest the vessel involved was built around 2004.

Quoting now from the source (camaraderie, on a Sailnet forum post) where I spotted the matter...

"The owner's blog seems well supported with descriptions, pictures and documentation that may be of interest. Of course, this is one side of the story and the issues will be decided in court. It would be good if any Voyage owners or reps with more information on this situation could chime in with more detail."

We all know the internet is well known for mis-information such that all this cannot be taken as 'gospel', but there seems to be no escaping that it would indeed be good to hear the other side of this directly from Voyage Yachts perspective.

[talus]

I had seen that blog before but thanks - his complaints look valid to me. I feel it is a worthwhile read for anyone considering and new model catamaran - those "early adopters" pay the price for us so we can benefit.

My hope is that any models over 5 years old will have been proven to some extent. I hope that someone has taken a builder to task for structural errors/failures and we are all the better for it.

[D&D]

talus - I agree with your conclusions, both about the (perhaps hidden?) 'price' of any new model catamaran and about vessels >5yrs old should be proven.

On the Voyage cats generally though, can you ease our fears about Pennywhistle's structural experience with her tramp area NOT being likely to recur with the Voyage design generally? The fears go along the lines of putting together the low bridgedeck clearance with the 'congested' (between glass tramps and the teak catwalk) foredeck with the former (the low bridgedeck) being more likely to bring the latter into contact with the sea...and the latter being less able to evacuate the seawater quickly...and hence leading to the very unhappy consequences for Pennywhistle, as well as other potentially unpleasant stability issues...

[jmpilot]

We are considering changing to cat. We are full time cruisers currently in Med on 46CC mono. Talus, you have provided some great info. I have been most interested in the PDQ44 but can not find one. Just out of curiosity the Lagoon series has many options in that 40 to 45ft range but you did not talk much about them. Do you have a "pros/cons" for them?

[talus]

D&D - No, I can't say my mind would be totally at ease. The Voyages line seem to have a bit of reputation for low clearance (the older Norseman 430 even more so). I just think this incident is a probably more of a new design error somewhere... Pennywhistle's cat being Hull #5 of the 450 version and only #2 of that layout with the hard top.

Again it all comes down to compromises.

jmpilot - I really like the Lagoons. All of them except maybe the 440 with what I think is a ridiculous helm position and impossible boom height.

I think the biggest flaw (from a live aboard point of view) in the smaller Lagoons is their galleys. Food, clothing, shelter. If you can't prep the food properly there really isn't any point in worrying about the other two.

Lagoon 380 - The galley in the 380 is practically non-existent (the galley in your 44 center cockpit will be easily twice the size and much more functional) and I have seen all kinds of work arounds for counter space including removable counter/cutting boards over the hull access / companionway entrance. Storage for 4 people long term is also going to be an issue. Oh, and I bash my head off the bimini going into the cockpit - so did everyone else - in fact they redesigned it in later models, probably due to concussion related lawsuits. However, If I was forced to buy a 38 foot cat, this would be a hard one to beat. There just isn't another 38 footer with the same volume. If you are a couple without kids this could be a great boat. You could even get a maritime divorce and live in separate hulls.

Lagoon 410 - I really like this boat. The galley is much larger and more functional than the 380. The salon is also much improved with a reasonable nav station and more storage. The older 2 head versions have a nice separate shower in the head (vice wet head) and the owners versions with two heads is almost ideal for us. The cockpit is spacious and deck access is great, wide and flat. I would be lying if I didn't say that this cat is very much a favorite of mine. What I didn't like is that there seems to be stress fractures in all the ones I have seen where the mast comes through the cabin roof. This isn't structural at this point, the mast is stepped lower down, but it just makes me wonder. I'm also not a real fan of the engine location under the aft berths. Not a show stopper but not my preference as I would rather have the engine fully out of the living space. I know, I know, engines aren't supposed to smell, bla, bla, bla. If engines were such spotless, smell-less beasts whey do they put a firewall between them and us in our cars, planes and boats. Engine spaces are there for a reason... for engines. Anyway, these are such nice cats that they have held their value quite well and are often priced in the range of the Leopard 4500 and 4700's. And that's the rub. The Leopards are going to sail circles around the 410 and be more sea kindly with their length. The Leopards have a superior galley and as far as I can tell are a more solid boat.

That leads me the the Lagoon 420. This is a beautiful cat. I can sit on it and dream of living in its HUGE hard covered cockpit, enormous galley and salon. The forward nav station is perfect. The three head, three cabin owners version is my dream boat. Of course the Leopards will still out-sail it but who would care while you were sipping martinis at the integrated helm (I feel like some boat avert). If you can't tell, I LOVE this cat. I also can't afford it.

I put the PDQ 44/42 in the same camp as the Lagoon 420. Like you said, hard to find one though. There were 5 on the market last Oct 2008 ranging from $450K for a 2001 (Kona Kai - 42') to $795K for a 2006. There was also a 2007 for $750K (Cat's PJ's - 44') --- all of which are well out of my price range. Beer budget, champagne tastes.

That pretty much sums up my Lagoon thoughts. If you haven't been on any of these cats you really owe it to yourself to check them out. There is a reason why Lagoon has sold so many - they are great.

jmpilot - how many of you are on your 44CC?

[jmpilot]

Talus, there are 2 of us on a 2001 Moody 46. Looking to spend about 350-400k

[talus]

jmpilot - A Moody 46 is a beautiful boat - I am a real fan of center cockpit boats.

All I can say is be prepared to be shocked by how "light weight" cats are built compared to your boat. Fellow monohull friends are continually remarking how "weak" catamarans are built compared to their mono...it's strictly a function of design (light is good in cats).

With your budget and only two people there will be quite a lot of selection for you. Ft Lauderdale, FL is probably the best spot to see as many different versions as possible in a short amount of time - it is also a good chance to see how used cats "wear" (and from what I have seen, not as well as mono's).

If you are looking at new boats, I have never been to the Annapolis Boat show but it is supposed to be pretty good for cats. Skip the Ft Lauderdale Boat Show - it's mostly power and mega-power-yachts. Strictly Sail Miami (Feb 2010) would also be a good show to hit --- couple that with a few brokerage boat visits and you will quickly get a good idea of what you like.

[ggray]

Regarding Pennywhistle, I can't say who is to "blame" here, but I will say that there were very few of this varient made, and her "teak walkway" as it's called is a good bit wider than on the 430/440. (Can't remember why this is so.) Thus it would be subjected to much more force from a breaking wave crashing on top. That said, I haven't seen the kind of wave impacting in a way that I could imagine a failure such as pennywhistle experienced. However, as a result of this happening to Pennywhistle, I trimmed the width of all my teak slats to give more openess. We have a 430.

Both Voyage and Leopard have low bridgedecks. You don't want to carry excess weight. There is ocassional slapping, but on the Voyage (haven't sailed the Leopard) the ribs on the underside seems to break up the wave some. Anyway we don't find it unpleasant very often, which it could easily be on our Edel 35.

Daggerboards. A replacement for our E35 HAD to have daggerboards, I determined. However, after sailing 2 Catanas, I got the sense (right or wrong) that people sailed these boats with the boards downor most of the way down, all of the time. On the Chesapeake we sail, not just anchor, in shallow water at times, so this wouldn't be a help. And one of the Catanas had trouble with barnacles in the trunk (may just be an isolated maintenance problem) that made retracting one board difficult. So I kind of backed away from daggerboards.At least, they became less important.