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PJOHara · 03-03-2013, 18:58

So I get too busy to post for a while and things turn around & change topics wildly, and then add 10 pages! I like this place! First off, the guy with a mast 4 feet longer than design is calling me out for trying to build a racer/cruiser out of a Searunner….. who’s the one with the bigger rig? On a serious note, yeah, we’re mostly happy with the changes, though we’d get a standard mainsail to bend on for serious multi-day passages. Doing an overlay of the main we had built with the standard sail it shows we moved the center of effort of the sail aft about 14 inches. If you calculate it using total sail area, the center of effort actually moves forward about 9 inches from design, simply because we don’t have an overlapping headsail. Worst case we’d have to square off the spreaders again, move the chainplates back and get a new backstay to put it back to “stock”, assuming there is such a thing.
Engines…. Yeah. That’s a problem with a bunch of solutions, none perfect. I’ve sailed on a variety of tri’s with sled type arrangements for an outboard , from the SeaClipper 28 my wife and I build on up to a few different 40 footers. For the most part they worked really well, but one thing the good ones all had in common was the motor could be raised/lowered, started and shifted without having to leave the cockpit. I guess you could lose one of the after bunks or storage compartment in a Searunner, seal it off from the interior and make up something that could be reached from right in the cockpit, but I think I’ll be sticking with our Yanmar . I deal with a bunch of different outboards ( 8 actually ) on a weekly basis for the kids Yacht club. The new generation of 4 stroke motors are pretty good, but the quality of fuel we get these days is terrible. The jets in that carbs on smaller engines ( 25 hp down ) are so small they barely pass light, never mind some of the E-10 if it sits for a while. Not insurmountable, but certainly a pain compared to diesel.
Roy M, nice centerboard! I’m jealous, I’ve considered something like that, but moved it down the “to do” list simply because the board we have works well. Not necessarily as a foil, but it’s very easy to put down, it floats right up, even when launching and has never been stuck in the trunk. The way your board is built is similar to rudder I made. The one difference is I used the wood core around the widest section of the chord, with foam forward and aft of that . I figure I have some easily repairable crush factor there. It weighs about 30% of the original.
I’m really interested in these super reefers you guys have.

Pat

shorebird2 · 03-03-2013, 19:55

Hi ya'll, I have a Searunner 31 question about the centerboard. I had the diver go down because the board was down and no way to pull it up. He scrapped a few small barnacles of and was able to push it up. I know about the positive flotation its suppose to have. How do you keep it tired up so it isn't banging around under motor power

I'm wondering how you deal with it.

Searunner31

trisailer · 04-03-2013, 03:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by shorebird2

Hi ya'll, I have a Searunner 31 question about the centerboard. I had the diver go down because the board was down and no way to pull it up. He scrapped a few small barnacles of and was able to push it up. I know about the positive flotation its suppose to have. How do you keep it tired up so it isn't banging around under motor power

I'm wondering how you deal with it.

Searunner31

I have a pedestal/wheel steering, so I just mounted a cleat to the side of it.
I've seen a cleat mounted, low on the cabin or seat side.
I've also seen a small piece of wood, just as long as the centerboard gap, with a cleat attached, to tie the line to.
I may be wrong, but I do not think you want your board just hanging down, and depend on positive flotation, to keep it up.

Captryan23 · 04-03-2013, 06:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Johnson

I am typing with my left hand, as the right (typing hand) is in a cast, so I'll try to be uncharacteristically brief.

THE OKEECHOBEE:
This is a great scenic shortcut for some, but your 37 will be too tall unless it has a shorter than standard mast, with no clutter on top. Our 34 is 50' above water on the mast, and 53' counting the antennae!

You can avoid the well publicized South Florida hassles, by going out of the inlet at Ft LaTiDa, and hug the coast VERY CLOSE, to avoid the Gulf Stream. Stop over at Biscayne Bay, then hop up to Marathon to go under the tall bridge there. Then take the inside ICW route on up until you chose to shoot across the Panhandle's arm pit. By Tarpon Springs, you will have too shoot across. OR:
You can just shoot across the entire Gulf, once leaving Fl Bay. We have done it both ways, and straight across is about a week faster than inlet hopping, but you do NOT want a bad norther hitting you in the middle of the Gulf. It can generate really nasty waves, too short in period to comfortably ride over!

If your destination is Bayou Chico, we know it well. (Lived there 3 years, and rode out H Ivan there too). The water goes shallow all winter, and many dock owners blew a hole, just under their boat, to keep them afloat at the dock, but they could not leave in winter without perfect timing.

KICK UP RUDDER:
The standard skeg/rudder has no more draft than the boat's minikeel, so, assuming you HAVE a mini keel, a different rudder doesn't have an advantage...

IF it matters to you, however: There is a semi balanced kick up spade rudder option in the plans, OR for the far superior skeg rudder, you can make a kick up rudder AND skeg unit, that fits into an open transom trunk. (Retrofitting this concept to a SR gets complicated though). These kick up rudder/skeg units are GREAT, but building it right is a LOT of work! John Marples can send you the plans for either, at a very modest price.

MARINE AC:
A built in installation on a SR is heavy, complicated, takes up valuable space, and the boat REALLY doesn't lend itself to it, due to the two divided cabins.

IF you still want her to be a good cruiser, but need AC at the dock, I would do as we have. Start off with a full cockpit enclosure, and make it really tight. Then, in the aft middle enclosure curtain, make a duplicate curtain that is mounted to a vertical ply wall, that has a condensate catchment tray underneath it. To this little wall we permanently mounted a 7,000 btu window ac unit. ($120)

With both companionway flaps kept wide open, by cooling the cockpit, the cool/dry air falls into the cabins nicely. It also keeps most of the noise "out there". (btw, we heat the boat this way too, as a single large living space).

We can put this wall/tray/ac unit in place, zip it in, and hook it up to the dock's pedestal in about 2 minutes. It works great, until the temps are in the upper 90s, and then it helps if it is used along with the awning, (which we all should have anyway), in order to really do its job. Even without the awning it helps a LOT! With >100 degree afternoon temps, we can have it in the 80s down below, and dry. Nighttime, is piece of cake!

I have never taken this 50# contraption with us cruising, and consider it useful mostly for "living at the dock mode" while working. It does however, have a balanced handle, and will fit nicely in the ama, OR your storage unit back home.

If we cruise the Chesapeake in Summer again, we will probably take it with us, as it is all protected cruising in the Chesapeake, and I would live with the weight, while cruising there. Then, If we had a heat spell coming, predicting 5 days at 105 degree temps, we would pull into a marina, hook up the ac, and wait it out.

I would not suggest taking such a thing out of the country, and in the tropics it seldom gets that hot, (> 95). Still, for waiting out H season, up the Rio Dulce, IN SUMMER, maybe I would?

Hope this helps,
Mark

Hey Mark,

Like you, I'm plucking with one hand due to shoulder surgery which has laid me up the last couple of week so I feel your pain. Thanks soooo much for all of your feedback. I really appreciate hearing for the pros. I did find out from Boatguy30 (Jeff Goff) that my mast is 45ft from the deck plus a few more feet from the waterline, so it will be close. Hopefully I will make it.

I did live in Bayou Chico years ago on my Morgan O/I and know Don and Tamar. They are awesome people and their tri was a piece of art. I'm living off the Santa Rosa Sound in a sweet little hurricane hole. It is a little shallow and it would great to have a kick-up rudder for year around usage. I may try to modify in the fall and may have more questions then.

As far as the AC, I have a great wife that wants AC so she is getting it! Don't want to mess up the deal I have her. I get to play with boats and she gets Disney! I will look into your setup. Seems to work well for you.

Try to hit St. Mary's City, Md if you are in that area. I was raised there and just a beautiful place.

Best,

Stu

sea dragon · 04-03-2013, 06:44

Sometimes some little item can fall down from the cockpit and really jam things .
Once,I had to pull the pin and pull the board up to free things up
Also the board can swell over time from water intrusion into the plywood .
I built my board so it can be pulled up into the cockpit with the mast still stepped.
I pull it every 10 years or so to see whats up with it and paint it.
If it is that difficult to pull up,One of these two things is likely the culprit.

searunner31 · 04-03-2013, 10:35

I have pedestal steering on my 31, makes it tight in the cockpit. I have a cleat for the fuse line but there is no line to pull up or hold it up. Where, would one mount oneon the center board?

Jimske · 04-03-2013, 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by shorebird2

Hi ya'll, I have a Searunner 31 question about the centerboard. I had the diver go down because the board was down and no way to pull it up. He scrapped a few small barnacles of and was able to push it up. I know about the positive flotation its suppose to have. How do you keep it tired up so it isn't banging around under motor power

I'm wondering how you deal with it.

Searunner31

Centerboard supposed to be default up (floats) so if it hits something it can pop up. Mine is rigged with a sacrificial thin rope "link" so if it hard grounds the link will break and it will pop up. Otherwise, I have to pull it down. Then I use a jam cleat to hold it there.

It does bump around a bit when under power. My remedy is to just pull it down a few inches with the jam cleat. Stops the bumping.

So if your board is not stuck or jammed down somehow there is something amiss. Not designed to float? Full of water?

I don't think my board will come through the cockpit slot on my 31. You may have to pull the boat to see what is wrong.

Jim

searunner31 · 04-03-2013, 11:30

No had a diver go down and clean and he pushed it right up and its staying up so we will see steady didn't have to hull out out.

Just knocking things off of the list. Firefly will have her out sailing by the end of the month.

Mark Johnson · 04-03-2013, 16:49

Pat,
My taller rig was to make her a better cruiser, not at all a racer. I talked extensively with John Marples first... about what would make the the best, simplest, most efficient, easiest to handle, geriatric cruising rig for the SR 34, and this was it. He always felt the 34 was undercanvassed, btw.

REGARDING OUR CHANGES:
The point was not to have "more" sail than a standard full main & genny, it was to have "as much sail". Our concept, would be to sail as a sloop, (99% of the time) with a single roller reefing Yankee shaped high clew "lapper" headsail. This sail almost tacks itself, rather than a genny's getting all "hung up in wires" when tacking, (like a long footed headsail usually does, with the staysail wire rigged up). At sea, ours always is, with the staysail hanked on, in a bag, and ready to go...

Also, this large bulletproof "lapper" headsail, can stand a huge amount of wind! (>60 knots on one occasion)!
I got caught in a sudden squall once, and broke a batten on the main, but not the headsail! When the ama deck came back above water, we took off like a banshee, until I could get her under control down wind.

The result is a sail that can be used effectively from 7 or 8 knots of app wind, all the way up to the mid 30s! If the seas are up, however, we strike the lapper entirely, then switch to the staysail and reefed main (when going to windward, and it will be consistently over 35 knots).
This lowering of the sailplan in a gale, reduces heel and pounding.

A taller sail with shorter foot, like our lapper VS a genny (of the same sq/ft)... will have more drive due to being in more air "up higher", AND due to the more efficient shape.

ALSO, our sail plan moves the COE forward, where it needs to be for balance. A larger main would have the opposite effect.

We can't sail with just a main, but often go out for a two hour sail with just the lapper. She balances on all points of sail this way, and if we raise the main, we might jump from 7.5 to 8 knots. Not much change, because as designed, these are headsail driven boats.

In a full gale, we can also sail with just the staysail, (totally balanced), if that double reefed headsail has us moving a bit too fast for the seaway.

I don't know about all Searunners, but this was also true on the first SR37 ever built, that I cruised on in the 70s. (The COE was too far aft). We actually raked the mast a couple of inches forward of vertical, because of this need to move the COE forward, (For better balance). It works, but makes a boat look just "wrong" somehow, without knowing why.

Otherwise, we had to spill most of the air in the main to get her to balance, OR keep the wheel turned a constant 10 or so degrees, to counteract the poor balance. This extra rudder drag FAR exceeds a theoretical advantage of a larger roach on the main.

Unless you move the entire rig forward, a larger = taller headsail, will add power, where as a larger roach on the main will likely just slow the boat down, IMO...

On our boat at least, John's idea has served us well. We are not trying to win a race, just make a decent passage. As an example, we sailed from Trinidad to the Beaufort NC inlet, with three legs, totaling 12 sea days. (During H season)! This very heavily loaded... with no hassles, breakdowns, or drama at all.

If one is putting the emphases primarily on speed, there are much faster boats out there, but for "wholesome", practical, "right in the rational middle" cruisers, Searunners do their job admirably.

Mark

trisailer · 04-03-2013, 16:51

I know the centerboard is supposed to float up, but I like to pull mine up when I'm in shallow waters or trailering etc. (I know I'll hear about the trailering part)

Saves the edges from getting dinged up.
My board has an up haul as well as a downhaul line.
The up haul line is described in the construction manual on page 183.
If you're board sticks, the two lines can help greatly.
If you get a chance to buy the construction manual, get it, then guard it like gold.
It covers all Searunners except the 34.

Mark Johnson · 04-03-2013, 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by searunner31

I have pedestal steering on my 31, makes it tight in the cockpit. I have a cleat for the fuse line but there is no line to pull up or hold it up. Where, would one mount oneon the center board?

I agree with Jim,
If the board doesn't float, it is either jammed, made of all glass, or terribly water logged.
On our 34, the board weighs about 300#s out of the boat. In the trunk, it bobs like a cork! I would guess 150#s of buoyancy?

For holding it down, (once winched down), I use a 2' long piece 1/8" parachute chord as a fuse. I tie a rolling hitch with it to the 3/8" down line, then put the other end of the chord in a cam cleat. It has prevented damage twice, when the board kicked up gently in a grounding.

(You must have a rubber bumper in the front of the trunk to prevent damage)

Mark

Mark Johnson · 04-03-2013, 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by trisailer

I know the centerboard is supposed to float up, but I like to pull mine up when I'm in shallow waters or trailering etc. (I know I'll hear about the trailering part)

Saves the edges from getting dinged up.
My board has an up haul as well as a downhaul line.
The up haul line is described in the construction manual on page 183.
If you're board sticks, the two lines can help greatly.
If you get a chance to buy the construction manual, get it, then guard it like gold.
It covers all Searunners except the 34.

For holding the board up when hauling or trailering, we use a large loop of 1" wide webbing. With the board floating in the trunk, (after removal of the cap), I slip the nylon loop over the end of the board with a skinny stick or something. Then I pull up HARD, and tie it around a piece of 2X2 or something, that bridges the gap across the trunk at the top. (Then put a piece of ply or something over the rest of the open trunk, so you don't break your leg)!

WITH THE BOAT OUT OF THE WATER...
I would NEVER try to hold it up or even assist in this, with the board's "up" line. The mechanics are all wrong for this sort of load, and so are the "up" blocks!!!

Mark

Mark Johnson · 04-03-2013, 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captryan23

Hey Mark,

Like you, I'm plucking with one hand due to shoulder surgery which has laid me up the last couple of week so I feel your pain. Thanks soooo much for all of your feedback. I really appreciate hearing for the pros. I did find out from Boatguy30 (Jeff Goff) that my mast is 45ft from the deck plus a few more feet from the waterline, so it will be close. Hopefully I will make it.

I did live in Bayou Chico years ago on my Morgan O/I and know Don and Tamar. They are awesome people and their tri was a piece of art. I'm living off the Santa Rosa Sound in a sweet little hurricane hole. It is a little shallow and it would great to have a kick-up rudder for year around usage. I may try to modify in the fall and may have more questions then.

As far as the AC, I have a great wife that wants AC so she is getting it! Don't want to mess up the deal I have her. I get to play with boats and she gets Disney! I will look into your setup. Seems to work well for you.

Try to hit St. Mary's City, Md if you are in that area. I was raised there and just a beautiful place.

Best,

Stu

Hi Stu,
Yep we cruised as far up as the Sassafras River, and I think we anchored off and checked out St Mary's City. I'd have to ask my wife, she keeps the log. It's all so nice up there, except the mid summer thunderstorms!

For summers at the dock up here OR Pensacola, you really need AC. Anchored out in the Keys, absolutely not... but there, where you are, I'd do like we did. You gotta keep the wife happy!

Don and Tamar are cruising Mexico right now, btw, and yes their tri "Carisa" was quite UNBELIEVABLE... It blew me away. Their retirement boat is a Shucker motorsailor.

The thing about your kick up rudder idea, is that to have a draft advantage, you would have to shorten the minikeel too! You can't do this much, without leaving the CB exposed, and you would NOT want to cut IT down. It would be a huge amount of work to save a couple of inches. I would come up with a better solution, like maybe home dredging yourself a small channel with a powerboat, if an extra foot is all you need.

Take care of that shoulder!
Mark

Roy M · 04-03-2013, 18:25

Off the subject a bit, but, I'm still trying to meet the $1000 minimum from Nanopore for vacuum insulated panels. So far I have about $334 for the reefer, and about $370 for the freezer. I'd like to find someone who wants to upgrade their chill boxes to the tune of about $300. That's about $12 per square foot! Any interest? I've got a couple weeks more to hunt for victims.

Also, the price for Rparts hatches has risen to extravagant levels, so I'm going to build my own for the freezer, using VIPs and foam with fiberglass rims. I'll send pics.