The New Fastcat 405: Please Comment and Help Us Make the Perfect 40-41' Cat

[freetime]

Originally Posted by fastcat435

The Lagoon Hybrid is equipped with a system made by Leroy somers from France in combination with a Kohler generetor and inboard electric motors with big props.

And about size of generator in kw and electricmotors?

[malovich]

First post and am curious about something, assuming the solar arrays are completely in the sun(clear sky) and the wind genny is getting about 10-12 knots of wind (direction doesn't matter), how fast will the cat go under power and without sails. All this assuming the batteries are topped and nothing in the cat is using power except the drive motors. I'm a 21yr-old engineering student and would love to have any fastcat.

[fastcat435]

Originally Posted by freetime

And about size of generator in kw and electricmotors?

Lagoon uses 2 x 10 Kw electric motors at 72 volts DC combined with a 11.5 KW generator.
I have added their info on the complete charging system.

http://www.cata-lagoon.com/site_agen...GB_01-2007.pdf

[fastcat435]

Originally Posted by malovich

First post and am curious about something, assuming the solar arrays are completely in the sun(clear sky) and the wind genny is getting about 10-12 knots of wind (direction doesn't matter), how fast will the cat go under power and without sails. All this assuming the batteries are topped and nothing in the cat is using power except the drive motors. I'm a 21yr-old engineering student and would love to have any fastcat.

Assuming the wind is on the nose or at 90 % app. we get 200 watt per hour from the masthead mounted Air Breeze.
The 4 x 280 watt sanyo panels give us in excess of 1000 watts per hour and it is possible to ad another 3 panels on the davits giving a toal of 2.2 KW total per hour for a maximum of 6 to 8 hours per day , plenty to keep all the batteries charged up , cook electrically , keep the fridge and freezer on and use all instruments needed to sail including the autopilot.we are able to get the boat to hull speed or about 8.5 knots under power.
A full charge will keep us going full speed for one hour and if the Lithium batteries are depleted to 20 % state of charge the generator kicks in.
If we run the cat at 25 % power we get 4 hours out of one charge not counting the generated power from the solar array or wind generator and this gives a speed of around 6 knots. In that case we lift one drive leg out of the water to minimize resistance and run the remaining drive leg at 4 Kw per hour.

Greetings

Gideon

[malovich]

Well I was asking how fast it would go on just wind and sun alone, remove the batteries from the equation and let the electrons flow straight to the motor(s) making it a strictly solar/wind powered boat. So I'm asking, how fast will it go on 2.2 kw?

[fastcat435]

Originally Posted by malovich

Well I was asking how fast it would go on just wind and sun alone, remove the batteries from the equation and let the electrons flow straight to the motor(s) making it a strictly solar/wind powered boat. So I'm asking, how fast will it go on 2.2 kw?

That is a hard question to answer since it depends much on wind conditions but lets assume there is no wind and only bright sunshine so a total of 1.8 KW is available
My guess would be around 3 knots max.

Greetings
Gideon

[fastcat435]

In order to get more solar power on our "Green Motion" cats we will purchase the new
Sun Power 315 wP panels and 4 units will be installed in each Green Motion cat.
One wind generator will be Masthead mounted and the second unit on the carbon Davits
Connection tube.
This will increase our daily available power to 10 Kw in average conditions
That is plenty to do all that is necessary on board including cooking , hot water , navigating and even charge the propulsion battery,s without using the Green Motor "Motogens"

[schoonerdog]

Makes sense, sun power are the worlds most efficient solar panels. My sharps were the most efficient 3 years ago and are still the most efficient people can buy through common means at about 17%, but the sun power generate 23% more power than mine. At the solar decathlon where students from MIT and other universities were building their completely solar powered houses, all of the well funded houses were exclusively using sunpower. I'm trying to figure out the electrical systems in my mind. It is difficult for multiple charging sources with different charging voltages to simultaneously charge the same battery bank, I believe that the higher voltage charging system would win. So you must have multiple battery banks which could be independently charged through the different charging sources, the propulsion from the wind generators and then the house bank from the solars so both charging sources could be used simultaneously and some sort of smart switches which could allow each charging source to charge the other banks depending upon charge status of it's nominal bank and the relative output of the other charging source (on windy nights or windless sunny days). This is no small accomplishment, congratulations! I'm sure in 20 years every sailboat will be built in the same way.

[fastcat435]

Originally Posted by schoonerdog

Makes sense, sun power are the worlds most efficient solar panels. My sharps were the most efficient 3 years ago and are still the most efficient people can buy through common means at about 17%, but the sun power generate 23% more power than mine. At the solar decathlon where students from MIT and other universities were building their completely solar powered houses, all of the well funded houses were exclusively using sunpower. I'm trying to figure out the electrical systems in my mind. It is difficult for multiple charging sources with different charging voltages to simultaneously charge the same battery bank, I believe that the higher voltage charging system would win. So you must have multiple battery banks which could be independently charged through the different charging sources, the propulsion from the wind generators and then the house bank from the solars so both charging sources could be used simultaneously and some sort of smart switches which could allow each charging source to charge the other banks depending upon charge status of it's nominal bank and the relative output of the other charging source (on windy nights or windless sunny days). This is no small accomplishment, congratulations! I'm sure in 20 years every sail boat will be built in the same way.

We actually put 3 panels in series and had a solar controller charger build that charges directly into the propulsion battery bank. the fourth panel uses a separate solar charger made by Blue sky energy type 3024 I and charges the house battery's at 24 volts and the same with the air breeze wind generators.
It is a complex system and we can also cross charge both systems from one to the other or back.
The Diesel generator that is on board for emergency use charges the 24 and the 144 volt battery banks at the same time true a separate alternator bolted on to the gen set.
We now install Lithium battery's to save on weight .
I think the time is a lot sooner that most new boats will have electric propulsion.
Just looking at the time it took for oil the last 4 years to go from $ 40 per barrel to $130 a barrel makes me feel that oil of $ 300 a barrel ( $ 11,00 a gallon) is around the corner. that is good and bad news , it will make for a cleaner earth and will make people think twice before using fossil fuels , it will not help the economy in the short run but will be a positive in the long run.
I can only advice to get more economical cars , houses , yachts etc.
In Europe it is almost impossible to sell a powerboat at a decent price and I am sure that the US will be the same.
My house and office in the Netherlands have been running on solar power for 9 years now and we actually feed back into the grid every year and receive some money back from the utility company. ( enough to get one meal with my wife )
It is the way to go, not cheap to start with but on the long run it will work out well.
Thanks for the compliment , greetings

Gideon

[ldrhawke]

I'm curious as to how you address a problem I have with my solar cell mounted horizontally on my dodger? The factory has told me following problems are not unique to my Kyocera cell, but simply the way a solar cell works.

1) in a horizontal position, and not being 90 degrees to the sun, the wattage out put rating is reduced over 20% of it max out put rating. It is not until the cell has full compete sun coverage do I get maximum out put. Then the full cell amperage output only last for 4 or 5 hours. I live in Florida with the sun almost directly overhead.

2) But a more difficult problem is when my boom places even the slightest partial sun shadow on the cell, the cell amperage output drops off to nearly nothing.

I would estimate between sun rise and sunset, the cell only yields 30% of its full rating.

With you cells mounted under the boom, do you have the same problem from boom shadow. If not, why? This would have dramatic reduction to your 1000 watt per hour calculated rating output for 4 cells.

[ldrhawke]

This is directly from the Kyocera manual.

It applies to all solar cells using PhotoVoltic cells. Bottomline is even if 1/2 of a single cell in the solar cell panel array with dozens of cells is partially shaded it will reduce all the cells the same amount.

If you put all four of your 315 watt cells in series, if one cell on a multicell single panel is partially blocked, it will virtually shut down the four panel system in series when it triggers the cell to protect itself. It can cause internal damage to the solar panel.

Mounting the solar panels on a roof under the boom, the sun will always be on one side of the boom or the other, accept at high noon...maybe. Then 1 or 2 of the four solar panels on the roof will always be running at near zero out put because of partial shade. When they are wired in series all four panels go down.

I would wire them each with an individual controller so they are totally independent. But even then I would not expect to get much over 50% of the total four panel systems max rating as a daily output.

Shading:
PV modules are very sensitive to shading. Unlike a solar thermal panel which can tolerate some shading, many brands of PV modules cannot even be shaded by the branch of a leafless tree.

Shading obstructions can be defined as soft or hard sources. If a tree branch, roof vent, chimney or other item is shading from a distance, the shadow is diffuse or dispersed. These soft sources significantly reduce the amount of light reaching the cell(s) of a module. Hard sources are defined as those that stop light from reaching the cell(s), such as a blanket, tree branch, bird dropping, or the like, sitting directly on top of the glass. If even one full cell is hard shaded the voltage of that module will drop to half of its unshaded value in order to protect itself. If enough cells are hard shaded, the module will not convert any energy and will, in fact, become a tiny drain of energy on the entire system.


Partial-shading even one cell of a 36-cell module, such as the KC120, will reduce its power output. Because all cells are connected in a series string, the weakest cell will bring the others down to its reduced power level. Therefore, whether ½ of one cell is shaded, or ½ a row of cells is shaded as shown above, the power decrease will be the same and proportional to the percentage of area shaded, in this case 50%.

When a full cell is shaded, it can act as a consumer of energy produced by the remainder of the cells, and trigger the module to protect itself .The module will route the power around that series string. If even one full cell in a series string is shaded, as seen on the right, it will likely cause the module to reduce its power level to ½ of its full available value. If a row of cells at the bottom of a module is fully shaded the power output may drop to zero. The best way to avoid a drop in output power is to avoid shading whenever possible.

[fastcat435]

Originally Posted by ldrhawke

I'm curious as to how you address a problem I have with my solar cell mounted horizontally on my dodger? The factory has told me following problems are not unique to my Kyocera cell, but simply the way a solar cell works.

1) in a horizontal position, and not being 90 degrees to the sun, the wattage out put rating is reduced over 20% of it max out put rating. It is not until the cell has full compete sun coverage do I get maximum out put. Then the full cell amperage output only last for 4 or 5 hours. I live in Florida with the sun almost directly overhead.

2) But a more difficult problem is when my boom places even the slightest partial sun shadow on the cell, the cell amperage output drops off to nearly nothing.

I would estimate between sun rise and sunset, the cell only yields 30% of its full rating.

With you cells mounted under the boom, do you have the same problem from boom shadow. If not, why? This would have dramatic reduction to your 1000 watt per hour calculated rating output for 4 cells.

Good Morning IDR Hawke

The problem with us is the same off course but our Bimini is 17 ft wide and the solar panels are placed on the outsides of this Bimini so the part under or near the boom is not used.
The space between the boom and where the panels are mounted is over 2 ft and the boom is only at a height of 1 ft over the Bimini.
Optionally we can mount another 2 panels over the davits where this problem is not present at all.
Because of the sun not being directly overhead we calculate with only 70 % efficiency
and not for more than 6 hours per day so 4 x 315 watt panels = 1260 x 70 % = 900 watt per hour x 6 = 5.4 Kw , the rest of the electric power will be supplied by the 2 x Air breeze or 24 x 150 watt x 2 = 7.2 Kw x 70 % = 5.4 Kw
The actual power consumption of everything on board is a fraction of this so there will be plenty of power to recharge the propulsion battery,s
Greetings

Gideon

[ldrhawke]

Do you use solar cell controllers that record actual daily out put or are you guestimating 70% output. Several good solar cell controllers actually record daily kwh out put and/or feed it to an on board computer, so there is no need for guessing.

Looking at your FastCat photos and the position of the boom, there little question that the solar cells on the opposite side of the boom to the suns position will always have a partial shadow. Even the slightest sun shadow, of only a couple percent on the solar cell surface, virtually makes the whole solar cell useless and brings the out put down to a very small percentage of full rating.

My solar cell controller shows a continuous reading on amperage output. When docked I slide the boom all the way to one side, so that it is not over the solar cell. Even then, the cell output doesn't get over .1 to .5 amps until just about 12:30 pm when the cell is completely shadow free.

I was amazed when I saw it's output drop to a fraction of an amp when the mast of a boat 50 feet away got between the sun and the cell, and no discernible sun shadow from the mast could even be seen on the cell. As the solar cell manual states, the shadow from a single leaf is capable of shut a solar cell down.

IMHO, giving a 70% of the rated out put for solar cells mounted on a sail boat Bimini top with a boom over the top are extremely generous real life output ratings. Is this based on recorded KWH output and if so can you publish the records. Also, you never addressed the question of the effect of putting your solar cells in series with solar cells that are partially blocked and have near zero output?

This is an important topic for cruising sailors in solar cell sizing and placement and not one to brush over lightly or to over rate performance.

[fastcat435]

Originally Posted by ldrhawke

Do you use solar cell controllers that record actual daily out put or are you guestimating 70% output. Several good solar cell controllers actually record daily kwh out put and/or feed it to an on board computer, so there is no need for guessing.

Looking at your FastCat photos and the position of the boom, there little question that the solar cells on the opposite side of the boom to the suns position will always have a partial shadow. Even the slightest sun shadow, of only a couple percent on the solar cell surface, virtually makes the whole solar cell useless and brings the out put down to a very small percentage of full rating.

My solar cell controller shows a continuous reading on amperage output. When docked I slide the boom all the way to one side, so that it is not over the solar cell. Even then, the cell output doesn't get over .1 to .5 amps until just about 12:30 pm when the cell is completely shadow free.

I was amazed when I saw it's output drop to a fraction of an amp when the mast of a boat 50 feet away got between the sun and the cell, and no discernible sun shadow from the mast could even be seen on the cell. As the solar cell manual states, the shadow from a single leaf is capable of shut a solar cell down.

IMHO, giving a 70% of the rated out put for solar cells mounted on a sail boat Bimini top with a boom over the top are extremely generous real life output ratings. Is this based on recorded KWH output and if so can you publish the records. Also, you never addressed the question of the effect of putting your solar cells in series with solar cells that are partially blocked and have near zero output?

This is an important topic for cruising sailors in solar cell sizing and placement and not one to brush over lightly or to over rate performance.

Hallo Idrhawke
To answer the last question first , the cat on which we will install this will only be in the water in 2 months so at that moment we can tell you if the solution of putting 3 panels in series is the right choice.( if it works well the advantage will be one less efficiency loss in converting 24 into 144 volts dc power )
We use the pro remote controller from Blue sky energy and their Maximum Power Point Tracking technology to get the max. amps from the panels. Blue Sky Energy Inc.

These controllers also give us the amps charged over a days period.
We have changed the Bimini and the boom is slimmer than before to be able to accommodate more solar panels and are able to get them further removed from the boom.
Any shadow on solar panels drastically reduces the output of any crystalline cell.
Because of that we mount 2 panels on each side of the Bimini in the length wise direction so there are inner and outer panels if any shade comes on the inner panels the outer panels will still function well , this will off course not work if the panels are mounted in series to create 144 volts.
On my St Francis 48 9 solar panels are mounted on the Bimini, each one 50 watts and the best I have seen is 380 watts per hour on a very sunny day or 85 % of max peak.
The 70 % is so far what I have seen on a FastCat 435 equipped with 2 x 215 solar panels made by Sanyo recently installed on African Innovation and this based on recorded output.

greetings Gideon

[ldrhawke]

A lot of words. It would be far easier to say the answer to my question about recording daily KWH output is NO!

You have no idea what you KWH out put is for a day from your solar cells, but you insist on continuing to use inflated component performance to show how great your all electric FastCat performs.

On my St Francis 48 9 solar panels are mounted on the Bimini, each one 50 watts and the best I have seen is 380 watts per hour on a very sunny day or 85 % of max peak.

The Blue Sky Energy ProRemote does a nice job of telling you battery condition but only give you a momentary reading on amperage output. One time you saw a high of 31 amps (380 watts) momentarily which is no indication of KWH out put for a day from all the solar cells. Your Blue Sky Energy system doesn't record KWH output.

The 70 % is so far what I have seen on a FastCat 435 equipped with 2 x 215 solar panels made by Sanyo recently installed on African Innovation and this based on recorded output.

What are you recording on the FastCat 435 to say 70%? 70% of what? Can you post those numbers to show an average 70% KWH out put from 2 -215 watt solar cells for 6 to 8 hours, or what ever time frame you want to restate.

The 4 x 280 watt sanyo panels give us in excess of 1000 watts per hour and it is possible to ad another 3 panels on the davits giving a toal of 2.2 KW total per hour for a maximum of 6 to 8 hours per day

IMHO, the numbers you started out posting, 13 KWH to 17.6 KWH, you have already reduced output by 30% in your re-evaluation post .

I'm saying the real KWH performance numbers from your solar cells will be reduced another 30% to 40% in real life. You will be lucky to average 30% to 40% of max wattage rating in KWH output over an 8 hour day from solar cells mounted on a sailboat bimini top.

You are distorting critical facts when you are using these peak solar cell amperage numbers to show the KWH replenishment performance of an electric FastCat system for sales purposes.

If I'm wrong...just show me real KWH performance recorded data to prove it. If you can't, stop telling people on this list your solar cell design is capable of this

2.2 KW total per hour for a maximum of 6 to 8 hours per day

This is comparable to someone selling you on a dragsters performance, that develops 2000 hp in a 4 second quarter mile, and telling you to use it to drive to work to get to work sooner. I guess if you only had to go a quarter mile in a straight line, without traffic lights, it could work. Wouldn't be very logical to use it if you worked 10 miles away and had to turn a corner.

Just because a solar cell is rated at 230 watts, it has little significance without knowing actual KWH daily output based on installation, where and how it is located on a particular boat relative to the sun.

When talking solar cell performance on a sail boat we need to know KWH's output average over a full 24 hour period and preferably over weeks . It is fairly easy to size a solar cell system to keep a refrigeration system running, but a different animal altogether when depending on KWH numbers for fast electrical propulsion system battery recharge.

You're telling buyers that running a FastCat Electric at reduced speeds, based on solar cell high output for recharging, and they can run the electric motors for long periods of time with the need for using a generator with you system design. If you daily solar KWH out put is only 30% average of rated wattage and your specs say 70% for 6 to 8 hours, you could be getting a lot of electric boats you sell, returned!

Greetings