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Old 05-05-2017, 16:43   #766
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

FYI:

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Old 05-05-2017, 16:58   #767
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Thank you cwjohm for your considered and rational post. I would like to say here that, for whatever it's worth, your feedback I have always considered seriously above all others.
Based upon your considered and informed feedback, I have been very motivated to examine the viability of EP for our new FreeFlow 50 very seriously indeed. As you know, we have experienced a very challenging storm in a cruising cat in the Coral Sea, so we am not going into this lightly. We have experienced that fear looking at massive breaking waves roaring past the boat and on occasion hitting it, so yes, this is serious stuff. We are also not as fortunate as to have unlimited funds to throw away on an ideological pipe dream, the so called green dream.

So we have dug into this EP caper quite deeply, I believe, in an organised decision making process. We have interviewed as many EP users as we could reasonably find, and quizzed them on best/worst aspect of EP, limitations they experienced, reliability & maintainability, costs both obvious and hidden, etc.
From this we have formed some conclusions, but always subject to new information, because this field is developing rapidly.

Electric hybrid is completely viable for cruising, and may be, in fact, superior to a diesel engine system, DEPENDING on what criteria you value and DEPENDING on what type of cruising is being considered. I'm working on a white paper that examines all that we've learned, and I'll post that when it's finished. It considers cost, total cost of ownership, EP system quality & design considerations ( Serial vs Parallel, reliability, maintainability, performance in adverse conditions, and yes, limitations. There doesn't seem to be such a document or discussion that could have helped us on our journey, so I guess I'll have to do it

Just one comment on your concern about adverse conditions. What I have learned from discussions with some very experienced bluewater voyagers is the consistent message that there are ways to handle adverse wind and sea conditions besides relying on diesels to just power into it. The first rule of seamanship they stress should be "No fixed destination!-No fixed timetable!". It is also the message in Beth & Evans experience as she wrote in the great book The Voyagers Handbook, a must read. So instead of bashing into 45 knot headwinds, maybe put out a parachute and sit tight till it moderates. In other cases maybe bear off and go somewhere else.

I certainly hope it will not be several years before we have our first hand experience with EP. The FF50 is underway & should splash early 2017.

Now lastly a request so I can finish my TCO comparison EP to diesel comparison. Could somebody please give me the real costs for maintaining 2 diesels properly (regular oil changes etc) over 5 years of voyaging, not sitting in an anchorage for 3 months at a time, and the engine hours associated with that type of use? The figures I have are all over the place, so far.

Thanks again Chris
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Old 05-05-2017, 17:02   #768
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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I certainly hope it will not be several years before we have our first hand experience with EP. The FF50 is underway & should splash early 2017.
I suspect early 2017 has come and gone.
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Old 05-05-2017, 17:10   #769
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Oops, 2018 that should have been.
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Old 05-05-2017, 17:36   #770
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

BigB, I think it is great you are building boats in Australia and trying new things. Solar power on houses isn't as cheap as plugging into the grid but well off people are willing to buy into the idea. Good on ya mate. I hope you sell a hundred of the bloody things.
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Old 05-05-2017, 17:46   #771
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by cwjohm View Post
If the proposition is that a yacht can be equipped with EP and be fully functional then the answer is unequivocally yes and I do not think anybody denies this.
That depends entirely on your definition of "fully functional".

Which in turn depends on specified Use Cases.

If one such Use Case is the common cruiser requirement for the ability to motor in adverse condition for hours or days (in a manner similar to a standard diesel engine driven sailboat). then I dispute your assertion.
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Old 05-05-2017, 17:48   #772
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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BigB, I think it is great you are building boats in Australia and trying new things. Solar power on houses isn't as cheap as plugging into the grid but well off people are willing to buy into the idea. Good on ya mate. I hope you sell a hundred of the bloody things.
Thanks seachange, but building in Oz turned out to be a non starter so we had to choose Thailand to get the cost & QA right.

Having said that, I think there are some advances in technology that will open up production boat building opportunities in high labour cost countries like Oz. I hope so, anyway. It would be much easier.

We think the FreeFlow should do pretty well. I'm biased of course, but I think it will be the best bluewater liveaboard voyaging boat available, but at pricing that is much more attractive than custom boats like Kato II.

The marketing has not started yet.
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Old 05-05-2017, 17:53   #773
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
That depends entirely on your definition of "fully functional".

Which in turn depends on specified Use Cases.

If one such Use Case is the common cruiser requirement for the ability to motor in adverse condition for hours or days (in a manner similar to a standard diesel engine driven sailboat). then I dispute your assertion.
Why? You can motor for as long as the DC Genset will run, and how much diesel you put on your boat is up to you. We will be using a milspec DC Genset that runs 24x7 for weeks at at time, so what's the problem exactly?
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Old 05-05-2017, 18:25   #774
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Thanks seachange, but building in Oz turned out to be a non starter so we had to choose Thailand to get the cost & QA right.
No worries. Sure the most of the design, engineering brains, marketing and profits are here in Oz. Good luck.
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Old 05-05-2017, 18:26   #775
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Why? You can motor for as long as the DC Genset will run, and how much diesel you put on your boat is up to you. We will be using a milspec DC Genset that runs 24x7 for weeks at at time, so what's the problem exactly?
What size genset?
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Old 05-05-2017, 18:45   #776
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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And there I was thinking they spent all this extra money to SAVE diesel. I see I've totally missed the point.
Yeah mate. It doesnt make any sense when you boil it a down to money and sense.

There is efficiency loss running a genny to power a motor. Or to run a motor to generate electricity via water flow. That is black and white. Clear as day. Crystal clear. Etc.

But that is not really what this is all about. These guys are bleeding edge, high stakes dreamers and very wealthy guys and girls are willing to throw money at them. More power to them. Something useful might just come out if it.
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Old 05-05-2017, 19:25   #777
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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What size genset?


Enough to produce half the HP required to move the boat.

Keep up.
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Old 05-05-2017, 20:08   #778
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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No worries. Sure the most of the design, engineering brains, marketing and profits are here in Oz. Good luck.
Yes, and FYI the Aussie content is very high and includes the build materials and Aussie equipment like Ozefridge, Allyacht spars/rigging, Hydrive, Anchor Right Excel anchors, a newly developed G100 anchor chain (half the weight and twice the strength) with superior galvanising, newly developed windows & doors, newly developed semi-rigid solar panels with cooling system and shading mitigation, etc.

There's alot of great Aussie innovation that deserves a wider audience.
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Old 05-05-2017, 20:16   #779
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

[QUOTE=BigBeakie;2386725] a newly developed G100 anchor chain (half the weight and twice the strength)

C'mon BB I know your having a lend now. Firstly low drag/high output regen and now featherlight anchor chain.

Does it float?
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Old 06-05-2017, 00:52   #780
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
...
I wouldn't think such things if his (and their) claims didn't fly in the face of physics. Lastly, boat speeds in sailing vessels are rarely steady. Surely you have noted that when you have been sailing. If one is trying to see small variations in speed when turning on the regen, it isn't all that easy to decide if that change was due to the drag or to a small natural change in speed.
...
Jim
Surely the speed difference is calculable, even adding waves to the equation we can model hull dynamics. I don't get why there wouldn't be reasonable approximations already completed although I didn't see them mentioned in this thread.

As a rough basic approximation can't you just work out the speed decrease for dropping 4kw off your shaft output power while motoring? (Ignoring a few factors, rough approximation).

Without more information you can't say their claims fly in the face of physics however, as noted before with a 30+k wind it might be completely unnoticeable, hull speed, surfing. Obviously there would extra drag but from my chair I can't say whether it would have been noticeable or not.

He wouldn't have had to run the regen all the time (I guess), he could have chosen when it would cause least effect.
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