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Old 05-05-2017, 04:23   #751
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
FYI here is link to Multihull World article on the successful use of OceanVolt SD15's on the new 20m/65ft Schionnong G-Force Speciale recently launched.

To quote the builder from the article, referring to motoring on the DC genset using 8kW of power (4kW to each motor), he said:

“We motored to the Gold Coast once the wind died out, under dark rainy skies. We used 3L of fuel per hour at a steady speed of 6kts. With a full crew of nine onboard – including the directors of Southern Spars, North Sails and Everything Marine, we were happy with that.”

G-Force 2000 Speciale
Prior post from BB:

LOA: 20m 66ft
Displacement loaded: 11T
SOG: 8 knots using 8kW from 10kW DC genset ( thats 4kW to each SD15 motor)


What happened to the 8kts from 8kw you claimed?

In the article, they never gave details of the conditions. Was their a bit of a tail current. They also don't state how long they motored or if they supplemented with battery power, so it could easily be 20kw for an hour or two to get the 6kts which is not particularly impressive for boat designed at great expense to be easy to push thru the water.

Even if it was just calm conditions, 6kts on 10hp for what is basically a race boat stripped out for testing, is drastically more believable than your prior claims.

As is typical, when the facts start coming out, the magic electric HP always seem to go poof.

So in the end a pair of 5hp 1 cycl diesels should be able to let this boat cruise at 6kts almost indefinitely under power and probably at less than 3l/hr.
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Old 05-05-2017, 04:42   #752
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Yep, and $19,000 Oz is $14,071.40 US. I was using USD figures.

But to be correct the OV SD15 is not equivalent to a 54HP, it is roughly equivalent to a 45HP diesel and by equivalent I'm talking about equivalent thrust, which is what matters.

Both have a thrust in the order of 320kgf at full power, if my sources are correct.

So, for USD$14,000 you could buy 2 Watt & Sea 600 hydrogenerators, or 1 OceanVolt SD15. But with the OceanVolt you would get 3 times the battery charging power AND silent, instant, sweet smelling, propulsion. Also virtually no maintenance, far superior dockside manouverability, ......and so forth.

Now, what was that about, "What are the benefits of electric propulsion?
Do we have to explain propulsion criteria again?

Thrust is meaningful if you are building a tug boat or a river crossing ferry but neither is known for high speed relative to HP.

For cruising at steady speeds, it's HP that counts. With the right gearing, I can generate any thrust that you like with any HP engine you like. The difference is the speed will be limited by the available HP.

Archimedes answered this question a few thousand years ago when he said, "with a long enough lever and a place to stand, I can move the earth itself." What he left out was, he would have to move the lever hundreds of miles to move the earth inches.

Same principal here,
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Old 05-05-2017, 04:53   #753
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

BB is correct that speed impacts are negligible when extracting power using the propeller... but only under very specific conditions.

If you have 30-40kt winds, you run into hull speed as a limiting factor (even on high performance cats) and you may as well either shorten sail or otherwise bleed off power because putting it into driving the boat faster gains you almost nothing after a certain point. In this situation, you can keep full sail up and use the extra power for generation while likely losing less than 0.1kt.

What he glosses over is that it only happens under very specific conditions that apply frequently for racers hanging out in the Roaring 40's but only rarely for mere mortals doing a milk run round the world trip on boats that rarely maintain continuous speeds in excess of 7-10kts. It also ignores the wear and tear on the rigging & sails keeping extra sail up in high wind conditions.

So while an interesting curiosity for racing boats, not much practical application for cruising boats.
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Old 05-05-2017, 05:46   #754
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Kato 2000 can be seen on youtube or at Schionning Design Facebook page if anyone wants a look inside. Race boat no, just a boat that can sail well in a light breeze and get to places when needed.
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Old 05-05-2017, 08:35   #755
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

There was a "Kato" heading up the NSW coast with a very flash looking couple on board last week. Same boat?
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Old 05-05-2017, 09:45   #756
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
...
So while an interesting curiosity for racing boats, not much practical application for cruising boats.
Many cruisers install Watt & Sea hydrogenerators on their boats. How is regeneration from an OceanVolt sail drive any different?
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Old 05-05-2017, 13:16   #757
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Well Ok Gentlemen. Did you ever see me say that the OV SD15 regen had no effect on boatspeed? Ever? No, you did not.So why are you taking that tack, if you'll pardon the pun................

So please stop saying EP transgresses the laws of the universe for cryin' out loud.
Well, you've said "no appreciable effect on boat speed" or the like often enough.

It's actually you who is claiming EP transgresses the laws of physics. You claim you can add drag (as long as its regenerative) without affecting speed.

You claim that an electric kilowatt is somehow roughly twice as big as a diesel one.

The rest of us are saying that EP actually DOES obey the laws of physics. And that claims it somehow circumvents them are unrealistic.
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Old 05-05-2017, 13:39   #758
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Maybe usefulness depends on the boat? Kato can afford to lose a knot or two. Actually, I'd appreciate it if they did so I could admire their Sperry Topsiders.

Im just happy BigB is building boats in Australia. Saying "no appreciable" speed difference when referring to Kato is a minor stretch of the truth compared to some of the whoppers I have heard at boat shows around the world.

Let the cashed up zillionaires pay big bucks for this kind of tech so we can all enjoy the side benefits in the future. I'd prefer them spending money on Australian-made boats than the hyped up Sydney real estate market.

I think the idea we can sacrifice a bit of boat speed for energy is a good one. If we are at max hull speed in 15-20kts then we may not be sacrificing anything at all, I bet other factors (drag etc) are bigger limiting factors on boat speed in that scenario.
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Old 05-05-2017, 13:51   #759
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan View Post
Dear Mr BB, Have you considered that SD 15 Manufacturer may have been a sponsor. Could this taint the data?
I think you've hit it on the head there, manufactures with a vested interest on positive result for sales profits. Hey im with BB i hope these are a great system and work well i'd love to have an elec system for full autonomy and kick fossil fuels, but need independent solid performance data on these new brands fighting for an emerging market to get us to spend more.
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Old 05-05-2017, 13:58   #760
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by svseachange View Post
Maybe usefulness depends on the boat? Kato can afford to lose a knot or two.
Not when it's motoring!
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Old 05-05-2017, 14:26   #761
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

As I previously mentioned, the ratio of sacrificed boat speed to power generated is not linear. Tenth of a knot slower near hull speed equals wayyyy more electricity generated than a tenth around 3 knots. It's an excellent swap at speed.
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Old 05-05-2017, 14:50   #762
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Not when it's motoring!
Touche.

But the owner and his missus could afford to eat out at flash restaurants every night as far as I could tell. Even if it meant driving his RIB home in a gale...

So he can also afford a few extra gallons of diesel for a talking point with his cashed up mates.
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Old 05-05-2017, 15:06   #763
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
So how much boatspeed loss was Coleman lying about?

I never said he lied and please don't intimate that I did. All I have heard are guesses about an obviously important question that could be answered with a 30 minute measurement. That is not a lie. It's merely avoiding the question.
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Old 05-05-2017, 15:22   #764
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by svseachange View Post
Touche.

But the owner and his missus could afford to eat out at flash restaurants every night as far as I could tell. Even if it meant driving his RIB home in a gale...

So he can also afford a few extra gallons of diesel for a talking point with his cashed up mates.
And there I was thinking they spent all this extra money to SAVE diesel. I see I've totally missed the point.
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Old 05-05-2017, 15:37   #765
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

So many people talking at cross purposes. If you want to talk scientifically about a subject then the proposition needs to be agreed firstly by all parties.

If the proposition is that a yacht can be equipped with EP and be fully functional then the answer is unequivocally yes and I do not think anybody denies this.

If throwing $3 million into a boat was petty cash for me I would probably be doing exactly what Tony has done with Kato mark 2, although I have some doubts as to how the boat will perform half way between Brisbane and New Cal heading into a 45kn wind right on the nose with 4m confused sea state.

Similarly, there is absolutely nothing wrong with people like Rob electing to go with a new boat type and propulsion system. All power to people like Rob in my view. Like Tony with Kato 2 there is a lot of satisfaction in owning a boat which is markedly different from the norm.

The problem is when you extend the scientific proposition to say that EP presents a similar cost/effectivity equation for the vast majority of boat owners where every $ is precious. This is demonstrably not the case and will not be the case until battery storage reaches similar energy densities of diesel.

Add to this equation marketing hype and people claiming fake facts to back their entrenched position and you have mass confusion. Is this not the case for all technical product offerings. In the end the consumer dictates the product offering and right now the consumer overwhelmingly selects diesel as the preferred method of propulsion. Over time this will no doubt change as battery technologies improve, but for now there will be the very early adopters who are willing to accept the potential downside of purchasing this technology. As with all early adoption you do this at your peril.

Consumer sentiment will only change when reasonable claims are made by the new technology along with independently verified results. This will require EP to be fitted into production type boats which perform in all manner of sea and weather conditions. Thus far such boats have seen significant failures. Single instances like Kato 2 will not serve the purpose. Perhaps Rob's boat will prove to be a boat that provides a stepping stone to EP being financially viable in all production boats, but by the time it is built and successfully tested in all conditions we will be a number of years down the track.
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