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Old 06-05-2017, 01:18   #781
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
I'm working on a white paper that examines all that we've learned, and I'll post that when it's finished. It considers cost, total cost of ownership, EP system quality & design considerations ( Serial vs Parallel, reliability, maintainability, performance in adverse conditions, and yes, limitations. There doesn't seem to be such a document or discussion that could have helped us on our journey, so I guess I'll have to do it
Please send me a PM, I will be glad to answer all your questions about Torqeedo systems.
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Old 06-05-2017, 01:41   #782
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by sparau View Post
Surely the speed difference is calculable, even adding waves to the equation we can model hull dynamics. I don't get why there wouldn't be reasonable approximations already completed although I didn't see them mentioned in this thread.
******
OK, YOU model the hull dynamics. I sure as hell can't. We're not talking displacement hulls here!

As a rough basic approximation can't you just work out the speed decrease for dropping 4kw off your shaft output power while motoring? (Ignoring a few factors, rough approximation).
******
Sure you can, except I don't think he has a motor for propulsion. this is a Vendee Globe boat, not a Catalina 30. And I've not seen any design factors published for these highly developed and proprietary vessels.


Without more information you can't say their claims fly in the face of physics however, as noted before with a 30+k wind it might be completely unnoticeable, hull speed, surfing. Obviously there would extra drag but from my chair I can't say whether it would have been noticeable or not.
****
Yes, I can say that if one extracts 4 kw from the available energy to move the boat that there will be SOME degradation in speed. How much depends on a whole lot of factors that we are not privy to.


He wouldn't have had to run the regen all the time (I guess), he could have chosen when it would cause least effect.
I do agree with your last statement, though!

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Old 06-05-2017, 02:25   #783
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

https://youtu.be/NH5IoJIY3MM



I supplied the Oceanvolt motors (and other components) to Noosa Marine and was onboard Kato for the sea-trial. So, I am in a position to answer some of your queries and concerns.

Since the talk is very much focused on hydro-generation at the moment, let me start with this Youtube video on board Kato cruising along at 20 to 25 knots… The hydro-regeneration at these speeds was comfortably above 4-5 kW per motor (up to 9.2kW! per motor) Of course, some speed is lost to the hydro-generation. But it is very hard to guess or measure how much, and frankly - who cares! One thing is sure, it is very much “insignificant", and very much in line with what Oceanvolt claims. (Extract from Oceanvolt FAQ: “Hydro generation creates drag of only 0.1 of a knot at boat speed of 7.0 knots - barely noticeable.”)

I was amused to read some of the comments about the drag of the Hydro-generation being comparable to having a couple of 6hp motor pushing the boat in reverse. What are we talking about here? Are we saying that Kato running in 15-20 knot winds with a triple reef should be sailing at over 30 knots? And that 23 knots is not fast enough? Granted, there is to be some loss of speed, after all “nothing is lost nothing is gained” as Lavoisier was saying… but, the reality is that it is “insignificant” and that Tony on Kato or Conrad on his IMOCA 60 cannot notice or measure it, the same as other Oceanvolt customers using hydro-generation.

Another point for your consideration is that the propellor used on Kato is a stock standard three bladed Gori propeller. So, when the hydro-generation is not in use the propeller is fully closed, just like in any other motor installation. And when the hydro-generation is working the prop is only partially open. So, the hydro-generation should be seen as a bonus. One bonus that you do not have on your diesel motor. Further, you also have the option to use it only when you need too. And the drag from the Oceanvolt SD15 fitted with a Gori propeller is less than the drag of a diesel sail drive equipped with the same Gori propeller. Very much a consideration on Kato.

It is fun to think that for example on Kato at 20 knots, Tony will get more power from the hydro-generation then from his genset, with a lot less noise, vibration and fumes.

And regarding Conrad’s incredible achievement in the Vendee on his old IMOCA 60: considering his budget and the age of his boat, this is an amazing result. He leads the old boat fleet and was in front of many of the new generation boats. So, to read a comment like “yes, but did he win” is leaving me scratching my head… It is also important to note that Oceanvolt was used not only to be green but also in an effort to simplify the onboard system and to REDUCE weight, just like onboard Kato. Traditionally onboard the Vendee Globe boats, diesel gensets and inboard engines are nothing but trouble. And the weight of the fuel that you have to carry is not negligible. To illustrate this, consider that to use your genset an hour a day for 120 days (including a safety margin) you need to have maybe 400 litres of diesel on board. The weight of this fuel is more than the total Oceanvolt SD15 installation (motor, batteries, inverter, controller cables etc).

Another important point to add here is that contrary to what I have read on this forum, the fire on board Conrad’s boat had nothing to do with the Oceanvolt installation. It was the solar controller that failed in a spectacular fashion… This solar regulator was not part of the Oceanvolt installation and was one of the same used in many other solar installations. Same as you may have yourself on your diesel-powered multihull. One more thing; Conrad did lose a lot of his solar energy production, making the hydro-generation function of his Oceanvolt motor even more important. And yes the Oceanvolt handled the trip without a problem, and we can expect to see a lot more of these installations in the 2020 edition of the Vendée Globe.
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Old 06-05-2017, 02:37   #784
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Jim, Sparau;

It seems to me that when folks hear that the OV regen is very efficient and productive, i.e. that it produces alot of power without slowing the boat down MUCH, they are skeptical because they are assuming that the prop is being dragged through the water like a fixed 3 blade. I recall Jim you asked about this in the past.

But it does not work like a Watt & Sea or other EP systems that do rely on the prop turning from water pressure, in reverse in the case of other EP systems.

I tried to explain this before, obviously not very well. But I'll try again.

If you go to the Oceanvolt website and look at the regen section you will find a video of the 2 blade folder prop spinning underwater. Here is what is happening, and it is not obvious.
1. The motor is put into regen mode at the throttle control at the helm.
2. You add some throttle, and the prop spins at fairly low revs to spread the blades of the prop. You will see the rpm's and power (in watts) on the system display. At this point you will see the power output, in regen mode remember, shows a bit negative value. Why? This is the energy it is taking to spin the prop. In other words it is negative regen.
3. But then when you add just a bit more power at the throttle control, you see the revs go up dramatically and the display changes from negative regen values, to positive regen output. Why? Because now the water flow is spinning the already spinning prop much faster, and the net difference is the regen output.

So basically the regen mode spins the prop just enough to keep the prop "open" ( in the case of the 2 blade folder) so that the water now does not collapse the blades, but instead causes the prop to spin faster from water pressure on the blades. Kind of like peddling a bike and having someone running beside you pushing at the same time you are peddling. You go faster than just your peddling effort.

It is NOT like dragging a fixed 3 blade through the water, OK?

Does that help at all? All I can say is I've spoken to an engineer expert in prop design about it, and he was pretty impressed. There is some clever electronic control going on.

And when you speak to actual owners who are using these things on cruising boats, they report they do not see dramatic changes in speed as they turn regen on.... and off,.... and on,....and off. You don't think you would try it out when you got your OV system installed? Bloody oath you would. And they are not sponsored by "the vendor". Ok?
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Old 06-05-2017, 02:56   #785
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by myocean View Post
Please send me a PM, I will be glad to answer all your questions about Torqeedo systems.
Thanks, but I'm pretty familiar with Torqeedo systems.

However you could let us know about any owners of Deep Blue Hybrid that could be a reference, that would be good
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Old 06-05-2017, 03:02   #786
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by fabgo View Post
Many cruisers install Watt & Sea hydrogenerators on their boats. How is regeneration from an OceanVolt sail drive any different?
I wasn't challenging that you can't produce power by dragging a prop thru the water.

I was challenging the silly assertion that you can generate several HP and have no impact on boat speed.
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Old 06-05-2017, 03:09   #787
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Lol electric power lol electric power lololololol
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Old 06-05-2017, 03:21   #788
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by sparau View Post
Surely the speed difference is calculable, even adding waves to the equation we can model hull dynamics. I don't get why there wouldn't be reasonable approximations already completed although I didn't see them mentioned in this thread.

As a rough basic approximation can't you just work out the speed decrease for dropping 4kw off your shaft output power while motoring? (Ignoring a few factors, rough approximation).

Without more information you can't say their claims fly in the face of physics however, as noted before with a 30+k wind it might be completely unnoticeable, hull speed, surfing. Obviously there would extra drag but from my chair I can't say whether it would have been noticeable or not.

He wouldn't have had to run the regen all the time (I guess), he could have chosen when it would cause least effect.
Jim already covered the basics but I would respond to the last one.

You can turn off the regen when conditions are not conducive. That was the point I was making in my prior post. For a racer who head south to Antarctica and then flies along at insane speeds, he can run it at will having little effect on his speed because he's almost always in gale conditions but for the typical cruiser on a leisurely tradewind passage, the days when they are running at hull speed are the exception rather than the rule and it's at hull speed where the difference is negligible.

Also a racer will happily stress the sail and rig a little more if it brings a competitive advantage. What is the long term cost of adding an extra 10hp drawn from the sails and rigging? Sails go baggy quickly when overstressed. To achieve hull speed and extra several extra HP means there will be more time the sails are pushed to their limits? Replacement sails can be very expensive and if you get a blow out offshore, can be dangerous.
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Old 06-05-2017, 03:39   #789
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Jim, Sparau;

It seems to me that when folks hear that the OV regen is very efficient and productive, i.e. that it produces alot of power without slowing the boat down MUCH, they are skeptical because they are assuming that the prop is being dragged through the water like a fixed 3 blade. I recall Jim you asked about this in the past.

But it does not work like a Watt & Sea or other EP systems that do rely on the prop turning from water pressure, in reverse in the case of other EP systems.

I tried to explain this before, obviously not very well. But I'll try again.

If you go to the Oceanvolt website and look at the regen section you will find a video of the 2 blade folder prop spinning underwater. Here is what is happening, and it is not obvious.
1. The motor is put into regen mode at the throttle control at the helm.
2. You add some throttle, and the prop spins at fairly low revs to spread the blades of the prop. You will see the rpm's and power (in watts) on the system display. At this point you will see the power output, in regen mode remember, shows a bit negative value. Why? This is the energy it is taking to spin the prop. In other words it is negative regen.
3. But then when you add just a bit more power at the throttle control, you see the revs go up dramatically and the display changes from negative regen values, to positive regen output. Why? Because now the water flow is spinning the already spinning prop much faster, and the net difference is the regen output.

So basically the regen mode spins the prop just enough to keep the prop "open" ( in the case of the 2 blade folder) so that the water now does not collapse the blades, but instead causes the prop to spin faster from water pressure on the blades. Kind of like peddling a bike and having someone running beside you pushing at the same time you are peddling. You go faster than just your peddling effort.

It is NOT like dragging a fixed 3 blade through the water, OK?

Does that help at all? All I can say is I've spoken to an engineer expert in prop design about it, and he was pretty impressed. There is some clever electronic control going on.

And when you speak to actual owners who are using these things on cruising boats, they report they do not see dramatic changes in speed as they turn regen on.... and off,.... and on,....and off. You don't think you would try it out when you got your OV system installed? Bloody oath you would. And they are not sponsored by "the vendor". Ok?
Once again you lead me to believe that Ocean Volt is run by either the incompetent or more likely frauds. This theory is so full of holes it's silly.

Either the prop is being drug thru the water to extract energy or it's not extracting energy. The law of conservation of energy would have to be broken for their line of BS to be true.

Admittedly with a folding prop, it needs to kick start the process by getting the blades to open but once open, it's the same situation as a fixed prop. You see the RPM jump up because it's being drug (fully open) thru the water just like a fixed prop once the process gets going. I'm guessing the system has to stay on so that if the RPM drops below a certain speed, it dumps a bit of power back in to keep the blades open.

This also leads to question: When they claim a certain regeneration KW, is that with or without this boost? This would mostly be an issue at low speeds where the prop would frequently need to be spun up by stored battery power. If they are ignoring the energy cost of doing this, it could drastically reduce the real output. (ie: if they are dumping an average of 200w in to keep the prop spinning but on average it's only generating 300w...it's not generating 300w but an average of 100w...not nearly as impressive).

PS: in your bike example, it implies you are both running along pushing and on the bike pedaling at the same time.
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Old 06-05-2017, 03:41   #790
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
and it's at hull speed where the difference is negligible.

This just keeps getting better.

From the OV web site, at a typical average speed for a 50 foot CRUISING cat,
say 8 knots (trade wind sailing from Outremer blog) its not actually producing much. 500 watts , according to the ADVERTISING graph.

No wonder no one notices any difference, its not actually doing anything.

Now my question is.. For a typical 50 ft cruiser, for how many WEEKS do you have to Regen for to get a days motoring, let alone keep the living/operating requirements satisfied.?

I can smell diesel fumes.

Remind me again the point of all this.
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Old 06-05-2017, 03:59   #791
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan View Post
This just keeps getting better.
...

Remind me again the point of all this.
And your average racing boat isn't running 3 big air/con units to actually put those mythical 4kw of regen to use.
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Old 06-05-2017, 04:06   #792
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan View Post
This just keeps getting better.

From the OV web site, at a typical average speed for a 50 foot CRUISING cat,
say 8 knots (trade wind sailing from Outremer blog) its not actually producing much. 500 watts , according to the ADVERTISING graph.

No wonder no one notices any difference, its not actually doing anything.

Now my question is.. For a typical 50 ft cruiser, for how many WEEKS do you have to Regen for to get a days motoring, let alone keep the living/operating requirements satisfied.?

I can smell diesel fumes.

Remind me again the point of all this.
Yes, that is with the old prop and it is about what Watt & Sea produces at it''s MAXIMUM. And quite a few people get those, hmmm, don't they?

And what do you know? Mr. Slug, displaying his typical tendency to confirmation bias, neglected to tell you that if you manage to squeeze just 1 more knot from your boat, what do you know, you get 1,000 watts of power just sailing along, hour after hour. So that's not useful, is it? And it just keeps going up.

But fear not, dear EP deniers. The new OV regen solution soon to be released will give you about 1,800 watts at 8 knots, 2,200 watts at 9 knots, 3,000 watts at 10 knots.

Is that useful Mr. Slug? Do you get what this is all about now, hmmm?

By the way, how fast does your boat go? What boat do you have?
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Old 06-05-2017, 04:29   #793
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post

And what do you know?
What , about the laws of real physics or the parallel world of OV physics?


Good luck squeezing another knot average out just like that. I suppose the laws of physics and hull speed don't apply in your universe.

Really, its time for you to check out ARC results and cruising blogs for similar length boats to yours for average speeds. I suspect it will put this Regen baloney in context.

So the new props generate more output. More output means MORE drag.
Its then not a case of squeezing out an extra knot but an extra 2 knots due to the drag of the system knocking your speed back to 9 knots.

Look. Don't get me wrong, I would love this all to work. At the moment it just doesn't add up.

And that is using the overly optimistic OV advertising guff.
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Old 06-05-2017, 06:02   #794
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Look. Don't get me wrong, I would love this all to work. At the moment it just doesn't add up.

Look, Slug, this is fascinating to me, mate. I'm a firm believer in that people of good intentions can, if not agree with each other, at least understand where the other person is coming from.

With you, and a few others that regularly dump on any aspect of EP they
can possibly find, I think maybe you just enjoy the contrarian game. I don't think you are really even trying to get at what is real about EP.

I took some time in post #783 to try and explain why there was minimal drag with the way OceanVolt do regeneration. No other EP vendor does anything similar, to my knowledge, but the point is, nobody seems to want to discuss that info in post #783 above. Did anybody else notice that??

To me that indicates what is going on here, i.e. with the exception of cwjohm and Jim Cate, there are just the same predictable persons who have not advanced this discussion, and have no intention of doing so. EP is magic, it can't work, doesn't work, contravenes the laws of physics, blablabla. Classic merchants of doubt behaviour IMO.

Since I'm a bit busy building a boat, this is becoming an exercise in WOFTAM.

If anyone is genuinely interested, fair enough, happy to discuss.
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Old 06-05-2017, 06:40   #795
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Dear BB, out of interest, are you a distributer or have a vested interest in/ for this product.

For someone with a passing fascination you go to great efforts to defend OV.

If not then you may find that people are not attacking the concept and OV, but merely shinning a little torch light , to illuminate the "grey" areas so to speak. I think most posters here would like you to go into any purchase agreement with as much information as possible. Its the "cruisers way" to look out for each other.

Attacking the messenger is no reward for our combined efforts and concerns.
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