Lagoon cats now on discount...

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

So you can't buy the boat if you don't tour the factory? Where did you see that?

You can only do a tour to sell you a boat, if your are about to spend a lot of money.
Lagon doesn't let anyone tour to check their own build, let alone have a surveyor accompany them.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

So you can't buy the boat if you don't tour the factory? Where did you see that?

Beneteau are not inclined to facilitate factory tours in my experience

[CarlF]

FP sued the resin maker about the osmosis and won a big settlement. It may have cost them nothing .

[Sand crab]

But Keelsidedown, said a factory tour was required not optional?

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

But Keelsidedown, said a factory tour was required not optional?

Some outdated Lagoon dealer handbook:

[SV WELDER]

Boat repair yards don’t pay the workers 200/hr regardless what they charge. Not sure what that means as bottom line cost to lagoon for repairing all these, but i agree, whatever that number is 30m$ or whatever, is money well spent by them to save the face of their company. They really have no choice and if they don’t do the right thing they are making grave mistake.

[crayiii]

Originally Posted by CarlF

FP sued the resin maker about the osmosis and won a big settlement. It may have cost them nothing .

I would guess Lagoon is looking carefully at what the naval architect gave them on the 450. Probably other manufacturers that used the same firm are as well.

[SV WELDER]

How can we characterize the design failing in e shortest way possible? Doesn’t seem like a glued vs tabbed problem to me, seems they didn’t make the bulkheads thick enough/ strong enough to handle the stress of the tension on the rig. Is that a fair assessment?

[nextis12]

$200 is on the high side as is 5 weeks of work to fix and not all 1,000 450s will need the repair.

So what is the fix going to cost $20 - $30k? Maybe far less to beef up bulkheads not cracked. I would conjecture that deep discounts on the 450 will not materialize.

[more]

Originally Posted by SV WELDER

Boat repair yards don’t pay the workers 200/hr regardless what they charge. Not sure what that means as bottom line cost to lagoon for repairing all these, but i agree, whatever that number is 30m$ or whatever, is money well spent by them to save the face of their company. They really have no choice and if they don’t do the right thing they are making grave mistake.

Why lagoon to pay repair for boat sold to a charter company (no warranty) Charter company pay boat around 500 000 $ use 5-7 year, make 1 000 000 $ and sale this boat for around 400 000. and now lagoon to pay maintenance and repair.
I am sure lagoon pay all private original owner if need this repair. Maybe pay repair for all boats i don't know.

[CatNewBee]

There are some early repairs reported around, professionally done in the yard, 3 bulkheads fixed/re-enforced and glased, deck joint retabbed around 43k€ for the fiberglass work in Martinique, total repair with carpenter put all furniture out and back in without visible damage about 60k€. Martinique is not known as a cheap labour country for boat repairs.

All professionally done by the boat yard, no DIY.

It is a link to FB, sorry for that, but there is all about the repair with a pdf file documentation what was broken and how it was fixed. I cannot repost all the stuff here, nor can I upload pdfs.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/902269...4572726004850/

So baseline is, you either buy it discounted and fix it yourself / let it fix or the owner organizes a repair and sells it whithout a bulkhead issues discount.

50...60k€ seems to be the "damage value" as orientation for the negotiations.

[HighTemp]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

But Keelsidedown, said a factory tour was required not optional?

I think that he may have been saying that he would not buy one unless he was permitted to tour the factory as his boat was being built to insure it was done right. That is the way I interpreted the post.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Snerf1

Classic chicken egg

Were rigs excessively tightened resulting in cracked bulkheads? Or

Were bulkheads cracking thus requiring additional tightening?

I think we know the answer is b, but apparently Ben is pursuing a

Of course they will eventually lose because there aren't any published waranty specs mandating certain tensions

But it might give execs a chance to get out. Of course I think investors and creditors will go after officers and directors anyway, so there's probably no way out

If you want to see real time market effect, just search YW sailboats by brand. Ben, Jen and Goon dwarf all others far in excess of market share

Since the brokers obviously know the score, they will stop wasting their time on stale inventory. So the add on impact will be magnified

Honestly, Ben will probably have to go BK with the assets sold off - sans these monstrous liabilities.

Honestly, I dont think most Lagoon 45 owners know how to tune a rig or would even attempt it. At this price point of boat, If they want their rig tuned they are likely to hire a rigger, who is much less likely to over tension it. So, my hypothesis is that there are relatively very few that were caused by over tensioning.

I am a bit surprised that the bulkheads appear to be built of plywood on edge. Is that so? That will almost certainly flex out of column and then shear at some point...as the photos Ive seen have shown.

All the bulkheads on my boat (Wildcat 35) are 3/4" end grain balsa core glassed on both sides, bloody f'ing strong.

[BigBeakie]

To my knowledge, end grain balsa panels are strong in compression only when forces are aligned with the grain. Usually the end grain is across the thickness of the panel, ie from skin to skin.

Which way do the forces run from mast compression? See the problem?

[zstine]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Lagoon would be building to RCD specifications based on a set of quite rigorous ISO standards. But such systems are NOT quality control standards. Typically boatbuilders can certify a “ standard “ boat and then each copy doesn’t get individually tested, inspected or certified . My understanding is Groupe Beneteau has CE process in house , ie it’s own “named” body

I suspect that the production pressure lagoon has been under in the past few years has led to cutting corners , and new hires being less trained etc. It’s no excuse of course

Beneteau are foremost in the liner/plexus build method . It always concerns me and I’ve owned Beneteaus . It works of close tolerances are maintained but there too much “ out of sight out of mind “ issues in my view

The trouble is price points especially for the charter market. Once a company makes your model for the charter market you really need to think again

I really don't think this is a 'production' issue as much as a 'design/engineering' flaw. There's just not enough strength in the bulkheads for the loads it is subject to... I'm not familiar with RDC, but I'm sure is spells out the analytical methods required to size the bulkheads as Loyds and other specs do. Then ISO would have certified that the Lagoon design is in accordance with the spec. If this is the case, as is the standard way of building, Then Lagoon can spread the blame to either RDC and/or ISO.. It's not necessarily Lagoon's fault at all! AND IMPORTANTLY The Spec and/or certs needs to be updated before more designers develop future inadequate designs! Lagoon has an internal QA system I'm sure, that verifies the as-built condition is per the approved design. If that is failing, then blame is on Lagoon. But based on the high number of failures and the similarity of the failures, It appears the design is the issue, not manufacturing.