Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

[smj]

Originally Posted by neilpride

I dont get it, ask your friend again if they look at the right spot, maybe is confused.

O41 if i remember well are heavy hulls, but maybe dozen of osmosis Jobs in the life of the hull take a toll.

The picture its from a Island Packet trhu hull hole before installing the thing, could be enough glass there to build 2 lagoons...

Just talked to my friend. His OI41 is hull number 8. The thin hull is below the galley cabinets and below the waterline. He drilled out a plug with a 1" hole saw and the hull was 1/4" thick. He said he could depress the hull with his hand. Now this is after he removed the rotten galley cabinets. My guess is the hull was depending on the cabinet work tabbed into the hull to maintain strength.


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[Cadence]

Originally Posted by captain58sailin

I have had the privilege of visiting several boat builders in FL whilst attending a marine surveyor course, and have witnessed the modern techniques of boat building first hand (monos not mutis) and my observation is that many builders use rigidity and strength as the same thing, it is not. I am from the old school regarding boat building, and there have been a few improvements over the last few years. Vacuum bagging works well to insure a complete even saturation of the glass fiber. Epoxy resin has more elasticity than polyester resin, which though I have no proof, I believe makes a stronger boat. A well constructed hand laid up, vacuum bagged hull is superior to a chopper gun, rolled hull. Regardless of how many hulls. There will always be a trade off between strength and weight. If you run your vessel aground and it pounds for any length of time, you should expect serious damage.

Question! How is a hull hand laid up and vacuum bagged? My understand of hand laid up is each layer is put on and wetted by hand?

I probably just don't understand vacuum bagging?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I probably just don't understand vacuum bagging?

Both vacuum infusion and vacuum bagging can be done with hand laid glass, think of vacuum bagging of th efood sealer things, they way they squeeze the snot out of food is the way they squeeze the resin out of glass

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Both vacuum infusion and vacuum bagging can be done with hand laid glass, think of vacuum bagging of th efood sealer things, they way they squeeze the snot out of food is the way they squeeze the resin out of glass

How is accomplished within the cure time?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by weavis

I think your splitting hairs here 44.
We can argue thick or thin when the issue is strength.
Evidence dictates that the hull would benefit from beefing up a little. It didnt do well in the circumstances.
Thats all.

How do you know? Do you know exactly what the circumstances were?

What we have here is an "expert" who first claimed Lagoons have no coring, which they obviously do in most of the boat, then says the hulls are too thin and mostly chopstrand, then admits he doesn't know what the actual laminate schedule is, and that done right the thickness might be adequate anyway.

So we seem to be back to his basic premise in any topic in this forum: if it's a catamaran it's bad.

[roetter]

Originally Posted by minaret

What was "pretty good" about it? Did you burn test a sample? If anyone has a Lagoon cutout (neilpride?) that they'd like me to burn test, PM me and I'll happily do it and post pics here. Then we'd know for certain whether that's a resin rich layup or not. Did you note the laminate schedule? No one has said anything about technique, only the materials involved, and the amount of same. How many plies of which materials went into the layup? Where?

Why would you want a resin rich layup? Totally the wrong way to go. You waste a lot and gain nothing.

Sure they are going to give me all their details. But the so called experts here have no background information about the accident and make all kinds of claims. Just totally nuts.


Rolf

[minaret]

Originally Posted by roetter

Why would you want a resin rich layup? Totally the wrong way to go. You waste a lot and gain nothing.

Sure they are going to give me all their details. But the so called experts here have no background information about the accident and make all kinds of claims. Just totally nuts.


Rolf

Seems you missed that I was clearly saying a rich layup is a bad thing, with ratios and all. Would you please post those details here for all to see? I'm sure many would love to see an actual laminate schedule.

[roetter]

Go ask those who say it was a bad layup that destroyed the cat.


Rolf

[robert sailor]

In the real world light and really strong only go together when you add lots of money because it is the most expensive way to build a boat. It takes the best workmen and the best design and is never cheap. Light and not so strong, sure lots of examples of that because that's how they build most production boats in todays super competitive market. Don't know a damn thing about Lagoons or their build so my comments are general in nature but most buyers start with a budget and then try to buy the most (biggest) boat with those dollars. We call it value shopping and there is nothing wrong with that but don't ever expect to get real high quality when value shopping.

[weavis]

Here is what Im not understanding.

Let me state clearly and for the record. I love Catamarans. I love Monos too but I have a preference for Catamarans for the type of sailing I do. I especially love 2 models of the Lagoon range.

In front of you is a photo of a damaged hull. REGARDLESS of the causation, we can see the manner in which the hull has been constructed. It has been constructed to a price point.

In my opinion, and that is all I can give, I would want a stronger, more durable hull construction than is shown in this picture. I have always chosen vessels that I can dry out on, bilge keels or shallow draft or reinforced keels so I can beach the craft.......in Florida it was what we did for meet ups etc.

I am of the opinion, that although legally strong enough, the hull would benefit from beefing up. Its a price matter for the company, and a concern for me.

I also know that nobody would object if it had a stronger construction.

This is not singling out Lagoon. Lagoon just provided the example.

[Goosebumps]

Originally Posted by weavis

Here is what Im not understanding.



Let me state clearly and for the record. I love Catamarans. I love Monos too but I have a preference for Catamarans for the type of sailing I do. I especially love 2 models of the Lagoon range.



In front of you is a photo of a damaged hull. REGARDLESS of the causation, we can see the manner in which the hull has been constructed. It has been constructed to a price point.



In my opinion, and that is all I can give, I would want a stronger, more durable hull construction than is shown in this picture. I have always chosen vessels that I can dry out on, bilge keels or shallow draft or reinforced keels so I can beach the craft.......in Florida it was what we did for meet ups etc.



I am of the opinion, that although legally strong enough, the hull would benefit from beefing up. Its a price matter for the company, and a concern for me.



I also know that nobody would object if it had a stronger construction.



This is not singling out Lagoon. Lagoon just provided the example.

I concur with weavis very much, maybe the use of catamarans is the focus we need! The hull for serious passage making can be light, cored, although I personally would opt for steel hulled mono if I would sail around the world! Why because hitting an object under the water surface has become quite common and with steel hull you have chance. Also the electronic charts depending on gps accuracy let us down in some way out areas, of Carribean, of Madagascar, of Indonesia.... again increasing chace of crashing into hidden obstructions. Then I can see weavis is true cruiser kniws what cosstal cruising is about. Indeed the caoability if drying out wit suitable catamaran is of utmost importance. What do we now get in new design catamarans, cats that are so weakly constructed that drying out, pounding a bit when tide cones in, results in serious structural risk.


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[gspeak]

Originally Posted by Goosebumps

I concur with weavis very much, maybe the use of catamarans is the focus we need! The hull for serious passage making can be light, cored, although I personally would opt for steel hulled mono if I would sail around the world! Why because hitting an object under the water surface has become quite common and with steel hull you have chance. Also the electronic charts depending on gps accuracy let us down in some way out areas, of Carribean, of Madagascar, of Indonesia.... again increasing chace of crashing into hidden obstructions. Then I can see weavis is true cruiser kniws what cosstal cruising is about. Indeed the caoability if drying out wit suitable catamaran is of utmost importance. What do we now get in new design catamarans, cats that are so weakly constructed that drying out, pounding a bit when tide cones in, results in serious structural risk.


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OMG this is unbelievable. After how many pages in this thread we're at this stage. Where in this thread has anybody talked about a catamaran (or Lagoon) breaking up while drying out. The original post was about the terrible loss of a boat (multihull) being bashed in circumstances still as yet explained.

As I asked previously (& not addressed), what were the circumstances, maybe any & all boats would've suffered catastrophic damage in the same circumstances. Who knows because we don't know the circumstances & nobody seems to care. But hey why worry about the truth. Lets just bash Lagoons, multihulls, construction methods or whatever. Even bash me for not knowing about hull construction.

Seems that more credence is given to those that have thousands of posts, whether they want to find the truth of the original post about the loss of a beautiful boat, or even if they want to push their own agenda. Oh yeah, we don't want to lose their experience.

Good luck to you all .... you've lost me, but I'm nothing.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by gspeak

OMG this is unbelievable. After how many pages in this thread we're at this stage. Where in this thread has anybody talked about a catamaran (or Lagoon) breaking up while drying out. The original post was about the terrible loss of a boat (multihull) being bashed in circumstances still as yet explained.

As I asked previously (& not addressed), what were the circumstances, maybe any & all boats would've suffered catastrophic damage in the same circumstances. Who knows because we don't know the circumstances & nobody seems to care. But hey why worry about the truth. Lets just bash Lagoons, multihulls, construction methods or whatever. Even bash me for not knowing about hull construction.

Seems that more credence is given to those that have thousands of posts, whether they want to find the truth of the original post about the loss of a beautiful boat, or even if they want to push their own agenda. Oh yeah, we don't want to lose their experience.

Good luck to you all .... you've lost me, but I'm nothing.

Bad day at the office?
This is a chat forum. Threads drift in and out all over the place. One aspect of the conversation changes to another. A bit like dinner conversation.

If your question has not been answered, well ask it again and someone who knows will answer it for you.

Sorry you feel like you are nothing....... self worth is important.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Cadence

How is accomplished within the cure time?

I believe of course you need a cure time that will allow for vacuum bagging.
Most of my limited experience with composites is with autoclaves and pre-preg or smaller layups like the chemical hoppers in an agricultural aircraft, not large boat hulls.
I can only assume that still to this day for the very large layups, a skilled laborer that will work out as much resin as possible while still assuring everything is well wetted out is hard to beat.
In my very limited experience, chopper guns are an abomination, good way to add weight though
Obviously on a very few can afford the very best, so picking an affordable construction technique is the problem (my opinion)

Although compared to many on this forum, my knowledge base is small indeed

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by weavis

I am of the opinion, that although legally strong enough, the hull would benefit from beefing up. Its a price matter for the company, and a concern for me.

I also know that nobody would object if it had a stronger construction.

Recognizing that your preference is for a thicker hull...

I am not sure it really is price/cost matter for Lagoon. With the price point of these boats another layer or two of material doesn't price it out of the market, probably.

I am guessing it is more for weight/payload.

Is thicker stronger? Depends what aspect of strength is being discussed. Penetration? Flex/rigidity? Tensile? Torsion?

I don't know what testing Lagoon did on their hull prototypes but perhaps getting a description of their non and destructive testing would be easier than getting their layup schedules...

I presume any manufacturer would do hull testing. Isn't it a liability thing not to?