Ideal cruising setup

[cwjohm]

Hi Yeloya

Thanks for that.

My specs show 8KVA FP genset is a little heavier than 96K.

Did not realise that you strengthened cleats with SS. I only allowed for blocks. I will look at this.

I have 40HP. Can you please tell me size of folding props you fitted.

The problem with anchors in Pacific is I am told that there are many areas with deep anchoring so 100m is necessary. I think I will use 60m chain and the rest rope.

[roetter]

Same here. We want comfort and not think about saving power or water all the time.

We are on a Lagoon 450. We have NO generator. Saves a lot of weight. But I have 1800W of solar.
No noise, no maintenance.

We run on solar only:
- two fridges and a 100 Liter portable Dometic freezer
- spectra 400 water maker, low consumption. We make at least 500 litres a week. Wash the deck with fresh water, shower,
- LG washing machine
- cappuccino maker
- toaster
- counter top cheap ice maker, works great, cost $100
- micro wave
- at least 4 times a week we switch on the electric water heater for 30 minutes for warm showers and doing dishes.

Never started the engine for charging. Still on the original alternators without modification.
1800W solar cost $1700. Two Outback 60 $ 550 each, about $500 for the support for the panels. Cables, fuses - adds up to about $3000 for the complete power package. A generator alone is much more in cost and weight and the maintenance head aches.

We are at anchor a lot. Often don't move for a week. So the engines run rarely. Had enough of doing lots of miles a year ago.

[cwjohm]

Wow. So is that 15 120W panels. Where do you put them? What happens when you get a week of cloud cover.

No air con is the difference I suppose.

[roetter]

Originally Posted by cwjohm

Wow. So is that 15 120W panels. Where do you put them? What happens when you get a week of cloud cover. No air con is the difference I suppose.

That is 6 300W panels. The small ones are way too much hassle.
I extended the cockpit roof. Makes a great rain and sun shade, place for the laundry lines, a rope to hang over the dinghy boarding point to make that a lot easier too.
We had 10 days of cloud cover in January. No problem. Went down a little bit every day on the bats, but filled them right up she the sun came out again. Never felt the use for an aircon while at anchor. We were in Ft. Lauderdale in December and would have like an aircon there though. But we had shore power then, so that would not make a difference.

[yeloya]

Hi Roetter,
1800 W solar is massive..But;
-no AC,
-the necessity for huge inverter, (2,5-3 KW to run yr toaster, espresso machine or even a hair drier for the admiral hence, some 3 grands as a cost + the cost of extra solars, you are close to genset cost and weight. On top, even with the 3 KV inverter, you will not be able to use two 220 V (or 110 V) AC devices at the same time, ie. hair drier and coffee machine, toaster and water maker (if it's AC) would not run...

Moreover, depending on solar only doesn't sound nice to me. Ideally, one should have wind+solar+genset to cover most of the situations.I left out the wind as Mark said, it tends to pick up any lines up the roof and doesn't geneate much on down wind sailing.
My folding props are Radice bipale just at 600 € each..

Yeloya

[mark_morwood]

John,

Looks like you are getting good advice here from a number of people with experience. Of course we don't all quite agree, but are surprisingly close on most issues - in particular avoid weight anywhere you can - or at least be aware of the consequences.

A couple of follow-up comments:

Autopilot/Steering:
- both my installed hydraulic rams are on separate arms on the port rudder stock, so I do not have redundancy on the autopilot to a failure of the port rudder that jams the rudder stock - for other failures I can think of I have some redundancy.
- one set of electronics is installed in the port stern with the rams, the other is in foil in boxes
- because the rams are beside each other, it is easy to swap the connectors if one fails
- I have redundancy in steering because the Catana 48 has two helms each mechanically linked to the rudder on its side with a tie-rod joining the two systems. Either helm drives the system, and if one side gets damaged and jammed, the tie-rod can be disconnected to allow steering with just one side.

Solar: We have 800W of solar with MPPT controllers, that will happily keep up with 2 fridges, spectra water maker, computers, tv etc. in most conditions. We have 10 80w panels, because I have 8 of them on our hard bimini and that was the size that fit. I agree with the advice to go with as large a panel as you can manage. For backup we have 100 amp alternators on the engines and a small 1000W Honda generator that we almost never use. Sounds like you are committed to the genset for various reasons, so I would just go solar + genset.

Dinghy Outboard:
- there are definitely two schools of thought here, and it just depends on your priorities. You either get planing speeds with 3-4 people (15-20hp) or light weight and easy to get on and off (6-8hp). We went for the planing as we are 2 adults and 2 kids and like to anchor away from town, or head off snorkeling exploring. It does mean the outboard weighs 110lbs and we need a lifting tackle to safely get it off the dinghy and on to its stands for passages.

Water: Once again I see two schools of thought here with respect to drinking water. Some people like to keep drinking water separate, others just use the tanks. We have always just used the boats tanks for all water, even when we were filling up from town supplies. I understand that not everyone is comfortable with that. However with a water maker providing all your water, I see no reason to do otherwise. To our tastes, the water from our water maker tastes better than almost anything else available, and is of known very high quality.

Props: We have Autostream props from Seahawk that I have been very happy with. The Maxprop is also very highly regarded, and probably the most popular by numbers of installs. I also looked at the Kiwiprops, but I think our size boat is on the large size for their construction.

Anchors:
- I agree with the comments above about keeping it as light as possible. We have one primary anchor (Rocna 33kg) on 200' of chain plus 200' of line. We almost never use anything but the chain. We also carry a smaller Spade aluminum anchor as a secondary that is rigged on a 30' piece of chain and 200' of line. This is ready to go in a forward locker, but must be managed by hand. The line can be put on the drum of the windlass if need be. We also have a large fortress (aluminuium) onboard, but disassembled with it's own rode.
- I can count on one hand the number of times we have put out more than one anchor in 2 years of cruising the US East Coast, Bahamas and Mediterranean. My advice is to to get your primary set up super reliable and comfortable for the circumstances you are going to be in, and have available something smaller and lighter that can be used as a short term backup if you lose your primary, or as a kedge, or to stop you swinging if you need to. Our experience has been the newer generation of anchors (Bugel, Spade, Rocna, ...) are so much more effective than the ones that came before that the old advice on the need to have multiple different anchors setup for every day anchoring is out of date.
- keep your secondary as light as possible, as the circumstances we have actually used it in, we laid it with the dinghy by hand. This was to stop us swinging with the current in a tight anchorage in the Bahamas, and once in a very narrow cove in Maine.
- we have used a long line ashore to stop swinging in tight spaces more than we have used a second anchor. We have a long line (200') flaked in a bag ready in a locker for that purpose. It is normally used off the stern. It helps having two teen-aged boys you can throw in the dinghy to take the line ashore in those circumstances. :-)

Sea-anchors/Drougues:
- we have a Jordan series drogue on board rigged and ready to go, but have never used it.
- We do not have a parachute anchor. I know some people swear by them, but the loads they generate, and the challenges of deployment and recovery have made me choose not to have one. I have actually used one in moderate (Gale Force) conditions on a monohull to stop for 24 hours to wait for weather many years ago, and though it lets us stop the boat and rest comfortably, I don't think it is the best option for a catamaran.

Sails:
- I bought our boat second hand, so can't comment on the quality of factory delivered sails, but this is where I spent money - getting well built, high performance sails designed by someone who knew catamarans. The loads and design of a main for a catamaran of this size is very different than for a mono-hull of the same size.

Mark.

[JK n Smitty]

I would add the Antares 44 to the list of possible boats. I saw one that was about 10 years old equipped similar to your list for about $650K USD. But since you didn't give an actual budget I don't know if that is within yours. It would only be within mine if I won the lottery. But I like to dream😎😎😎

[yeloya]

I forgot to mention; if you are buying a second hand Orana, carefully check for osmosis. Almost all of them have this problem, latest hull numbers (> # 70) to a lesser extend. We treated about 10 Orana's so far under FP warranty but FP doesn't accept the warranty on second hand boats even if she is still within 5 years of hull warranty.
Otherwise, Orana is very solid boat, sails reasonably well, good bridge deck clearance, spaceous and pay load is much better than many comparable cats.

Cheers

Yeloya

[roetter]

Originally Posted by yeloya

Hi Roetter, 1800 W solar is massive..But; -no AC, -the necessity for huge inverter, (2,5-3 KW to run yr toaster, espresso machine or even a hair drier for the admiral hence, some 3 grands as a cost + the cost of extra solars, you are close to genset cost and weight. On top, even with the 3 KV inverter, you will not be able to use two 220 V (or 110 V) AC devices at the same time, ie. hair drier and coffee machine, toaster and water maker (if it's AC) would not run... Moreover, depending on solar only doesn't sound nice to me. Ideally, one should have wind+solar+genset to cover most of the situations.I left out the wind as Mark said, it tends to pick up any lines up the roof and doesn't geneate much on down wind sailing. My folding props are Radice bipale just at 600 € each.. Yeloya

I have 110V and 220V devices on board and run them at the same time (Victron auto transformer). The inverter is required anyway as you do not want to start the generator for 2 minutes of creating a toast or using the hair drier. The inverter/charger is $1950 (Victron MultiPlus) and part of that cost is the 120 A charger with full programming features.

Wind is very inefficient and very loud. Would drive the admiral crazy. Complains even about anchored boats nearby, so we move. Generator is way too much weight for very little use. For an emergency back up, just get a Honda 2000 and see it spend 99.9+% of its time in a locker. I don't have one and am glad it was not easily available when I looked for one. You may want to start it from time to time to prevent it from rusting.

I have never picked up a line with the solar. There are no edges to catch on unless you get about 2.5 m aft of the boom end. I am not sure if there is even a line on my boat that could catch there, if I tried. On the front edge I ran a thin line from the corner of the panel to a hand hold so no line can catch there.

Downwind sailing is not the problem, down-sun can be. However, I have them split into two independent systems, one each side of the center line. One is always in full sun and produces 40+ amps for hours and hours. Also, what percentage of time do you spend sailing down-sun? And if you do, then you probably run your engine to get in and out of harbours, or deal with low wind every day or two.

The sun shines every day. Even in pretty thick clouds they still produce about 40A for several hours, 120A at full radiation and perpendicular sun. I never bother adjusting the panels to the sun. They produce enough. At this very moment they are producing 93A together and it is only 9:30 sun-local. So this will continue for another 5 hours. It started at this rate about 30 minutes ago and will go up as the sun climbs higher. So I get over 500 Ah (that would be about 5 hours generator run time if your batteries can absorb that much. Mine can. I have 1400Ah LiFePo) while enjoying the quite of this anchorage with just us and nobody else. That is what sailing is about - sitting at anchor enjoying nature.

[roetter]

Originally Posted by mark_morwood

...
Water: Once again I see two schools of thought here with respect to drinking water. Some people like to keep drinking water separate, others just use the tanks. We have always just used the boats tanks for all water, even when we were filling up from town supplies. I understand that not everyone is comfortable with that. However with a water maker providing all your water, I see no reason to do otherwise. To our tastes, the water from our water maker tastes better than almost anything else available, and is of known very high quality.
....

Water maker:
We had a diverted valve installed and leads to the sink cabinet with a small diameter hose. When making water we fill a 25l plastic container. It sits on a cockpit counter and has a tap on it. Getting drinking water is a 5 second affair. We also remineralize the drinking water with a filter that sits in the line after the diverter valve. Makes the water taste great. All our guest love it too. We usually have to run the water maker because the drinking water container gets low.

[roetter]

Originally Posted by JK n Smitty

I would add the Antares 44 to the list of possible boats. I saw one that was about 10 years old equipped similar to your list for about $650K USD. But since you didn't give an actual budget I don't know if that is within yours. It would only be within mine if I won the lottery. But I like to dreamdde0edde0edde0e

You can get a brand new Lagoon 450 for less than that including the upgrade to offshore cruising. Just done that.

[yeloya]

Well, I didn't say that solars are picking lines, but the wind generator does it, just to support yr view..
Everyone has their choices which work for them or not; I am happy that it worked for you but it won't work for everybody, like my setup which won't for you. I see very different boats and very different cruising mode; as long as they are happy that's fine.
I usually don't spend more than a day or two at the same anchorage while I see many cruisers staying in the same spot happyly for weeks..
I personally hate cats with flying bridge and I also find them dangereous in offshore sailing for various reasons. (They are doing great in charter..) However, Lagoon and recently FP have sold tons of cat with flying bridge...
The configuration of the boat should not only differ from owners' taste but also from the boat they choose; if you want sail fast but need every luxury on yr boat, it s pointless to buy an Outremer with very little pay load. The moment you start loading her, it will be slower than Orana or Lagoon..
You are one of tyhe lucky guys who find the right boat with right configuration which work perfect for you, enjoy it.. There are many people who are still struggling between various compromises..

Cheers

Yeloya

[roetter]

Yeloya

Sorry. Misread that about the wind generator.

You are right, Everybody likes something different. Otherwise all boats would be the same. This is what I like.

BTW crossed the Atlantic with the fly bridge in up to 20' waves and winds every day over 30 knots one day 45+. Averaged 183nm/day.

No issues with the fly bridge for us. In reality you are only about 1.5' higher than on the usual cockpit steering station. You are walking in a 1.5' deep trench up there. Very safe in my opinion and the view is the best seat in the house. 360 degrees for every body. All people want to be up there. All lines are there and 3-4 people can work there at the same time if you have to do an emergency reef or take down.

[JK n Smitty]

Originally Posted by roetter

You can get a brand new Lagoon 450 for less than that including the upgrade to offshore cruising. Just done that.

Yup. But the Antares is way nicer IMO. You can get a 20 year old Pacific Seacraft for the same cost as a new Hunter. But that doesn't mean they are equivalent boats. Now don't get me wrong, I am total pro production boat. I have a 31 foot Catalina and I intend to cruise this boat for the next 5 years or so through the Caribbean (just excepted an offer on my house yesterday).

The Antares is just my lottery boat. If I ever had $10Mil I would spend one on the Antares and head out to never bee seen again. It's a better setup and more thought out for living aboard then the Lagoon, IMO.

Again, don't get me wrong. The Lagoon 380 owner's version is high on our list for our next boat. We plan to cruise for the next 5 years, when we stop we will likely be 45. Hopefully we will be able to build up the kitty enough again to buy the Lagoon and head out again in our early 50s.

Fair winds,

Jesse

[cwjohm]

Yeloya

My Orana is 2012, with vinylester coatings, and FP warranty was passed to me as second owner in writing.

The term "sails well" is subjective I guess. I will not get into this issue other than to say that as yet, and I have looked extensively, I have yet to find a better sailing boat that provides the comfort required except in the 60 foot range.

Would you be able to tell me the SIZE of your folding props.

I am also interested in your comment that an outremer will perform worse when loaded for cruising than production boats the 42,45,49 presumedly being in the length region we are referring. I am sure the O5X does not suffer this problem. I ask this as it there appears to have been a number of O49s that are sailed over the Atlantic and then immediately on sold. Plainly they are quick but I wonder whether there is a reason why they are not kept. Do you have any evidence of their performance at full cruising weight.

Jesse

Antares is a nice boat but I have priced it equipped as I would like it and it is around U$1.1 and then add 15% tax and duty, and the fact that I have to go to Argentina and the value equation does not stack up.

The O5X is my "lottery" boat.

Chris