Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by pguillemin

hello ; I did not understand all you wrote but yes , Yes on two points , I am a captain by trade and have been at sea most of my life - and building boats ; Large and small ; So I have seen failures on production multihulls , Lots of them ; And yes on the other points ; I imported the FP in the US for 10 years and we sold quite a lot ; Most of them - starting with infusion - failed; Believe me I know ; I was taken to court for that because the builder bailed out of warranty ; So I defintively know what I am talking about ; Check the reports on multihulls sinking ; Sometimes it is human error but most it is not

Not sure how much clearer I can be so I'll be blunt. I have not only "checked reports" I've actually written a number of them. A check of reports, again to be blunt, shows you to be incorrect. If you have any actual reports showing a greater failure rate for these boats you list versus other boats of previous years or other makes I would love to see it. Absent that, yet again to be quite blunt, your unsupported assertion that FP and Lagoon boats are unsafe to take offshore is simply wrong, and again given the numbers safely operating offshore it is simply absurd.

[pguillemin]

Hello Allen Rbrts ; Which part failed ? the lens or the hinges ? or the whole assembly ? For the lens ;; they used to 5200 plywood instead of polycarbonate ; For the hinges ; Some are aluminium and some are plastic so worth checking indeed ; As for the whole assembly ;; time to get another builder

[pguillemin]

Absurd ; I do not think so ; What do you call offshore ? do you think there is many of these lagoon going around the world ? which reports have you written ? All of the lagoon 560 and 620 that goes across the atlantic ( all of them ) have to go back to the factory for structural repair ; And as of the Fountaine Pajot , as I explained earlier - for 10 years or more I imported them in the USA , And on the generation of Mahe , Salina , Orana , Eleuthera , Belize ;;;;; ALL of them had stuctural issues ; On the mahe it was the infusion process , On the Orana / Salina it was the main bulkhead and the jonction on the deck and roof ; On the Eleuthera it was the whole boat peeling away ; The Belize which was transitional had less issues but still was a weak boat ; So do not tell me about i wrote report because I paid for learning all these issues ; and yes the court reports are available

[pguillemin]

I am sorry I lost my cool but I do not go often on this forum ; and each time it is the same thing , I got into an argument ; So looking at your screen name ;; i am going to let it go ; I do not want argument ; I do not want to teach anything to anyone ; Actually I do not give a s;;t if people buy lagoon or FP . Good for them , and good for you ; and bravo for being a Coastie ; Bye now

[Valiente]

Originally Posted by pguillemin

I am sorry I lost my cool but I do not go often on this forum ; and each time it is the same thing , I got into an argument ; So looking at your screen name ;; i am going to let it go ; I do not want argument ; I do not want to teach anything to anyone ; Actually I do not give a s;;t if people buy lagoon or FP . Good for them , and good for you ; and bravo for being a Coastie ; Bye now

Just to say your insight of the industry is appreciated!

[AllenRbrts]

Originally Posted by pguillemin

Hello Allen Rbrts ; Which part failed ? the lens or the hinges ? or the whole assembly ? For the lens ;; they used to 5200 plywood instead of polycarbonate ; For the hinges ; Some are aluminium and some are plastic so worth checking indeed ; As for the whole assembly ;; time to get another builder

My boat along with other FP boats under 50’ and many other manufacturers is the Goiot 49.42 escape hatch. The lens is held in the frame by silicone. Most pressure is inward against the frame but there apparently is some negative pressure on the lens. Silicone doesn’t adhere well to silicone, so the lens has the potential to detach from the frame. The hatch handles at the bottom do retain the lens, but if enough water pressure occurs, the lens can fall out with disastrous results. I don’t know if that is what happened here, but the accident happened in the early evening (call to the coast guard at 7pm) so it would be strange if a small failure like a thru hull wasn’t noticed while it could still be managed. This was a delivery crew so they were experienced. An escape hatch failure would be completely beyond the scope of anybody to deal with.

[Brewgyver]

Originally Posted by tomfl

It might take me five minutes, several double (or triple) folded garbage bags, and as many rolls of duck as needed to cover the escape hatch. (snippage) I just made all of that up.

Yes, obviously. For the benefit of anyone who might read your post and take it seriously, that approach would not work on ANY sized hole on ANY kind of boat. It wouldn't even last more than a few minutes on a cabin top hatch. DucT tape, gaffers' tape, gorilla tape, it really doesn't matter. There is no such thing as any self-adhesive tape that will adhere to any wet surface.

There are specialized products for emergency repairs of underwater cracks and smaller holes, say up to a few inches in diameter, but I've yet to see a good ready-made solution that could solve the disaster of an opening the size of a catamaran escape hatch.

[Brewgyver]

Originally Posted by pguillemin

These boats - Lagoon and FP are not built to go offshore ; especially in any kind of weather ;

So, for how many years were Lagoons built in South Africa and delivered to the Caribbean and U.S. by sailing on their own bottoms???

Originally Posted by pguillemin

So many things can go wrong; laminate , structure, rigging , overload , ... seacock failure , Raw water intake failure on Engine or gen set ;

In other words, the same component failures that can occur on virtually ANY boat?

[robertk445]

Not really, the water would equalize passing through crossovers.

Originally Posted by Shrew

It would seem both hulls are sitting at about the same depth and attitude. I doubt you had 2 hatches fail. I would assume that if a single hatch fails, one hull is flooded and the boat lists heavily to that side.

A single picture with limited information doesn't tell us whether the vessel sunk further or what the root cause was. Mono vs. multi comments only serve to inflame debate unnecessarily.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by pguillemin

Absurd ; I do not think so ; What do you call offshore ? do you think there is many of these lagoon going around the world ? which reports have you written ? All of the lagoon 560 and 620 that goes across the atlantic ( all of them ) have to go back to the factory for structural repair ; And as of the Fountaine Pajot , as I explained earlier - for 10 years or more I imported them in the USA , And on the generation of Mahe , Salina , Orana , Eleuthera , Belize ;;;;; ALL of them had stuctural issues ; On the mahe it was the infusion process , On the Orana / Salina it was the main bulkhead and the jonction on the deck and roof ; On the Eleuthera it was the whole boat peeling away ; The Belize which was transitional had less issues but still was a weak boat ; So do not tell me about i wrote report because I paid for learning all these issues ; and yes the court reports are available

Funny thing I picked my screen name purposely to see how many people would judge based on something so arbitrary. Suffice it to say it's "ironic", so I get a kick out of your judgement on that basis.
I have a Mahe, know dozens of other folks with Mahes, not a single structural issue. Can you be more specific, what "structural issues" exactly and on what which boats? In fact can you provide even a single example on this particular model? Should be easy given you're making it sound like it was common. In case it's not clear, I'm saying that's a flat out fabrication on your part absent some specifics.

And this assertion that every single Lagoon 560 and 620 that crossed the.Atlantic then crossed back to the factory in France for structural repairs? That doesn't even make any sense

Again, you provide no support and are making outrageous claims that folks here know to be false, what exactly are you hoping to accomplish?

[Factor]

Originally Posted by AllenRbrts

.........Interesting read. I had found that on google books, but thanks for the original. At the end of 255, this outlines an effort to seal a 8x10” hole with blankets wrapped to make a cone which is passed through the hole from the outside. Pretty clever idea. Could potentially work for escape hatch failure but the hole is 4x the area. (snip)

Young James cook did this about 230 years ago in FNQ when the Endeavour was holed, its called "Fothering" I am sure he wasn't the first

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by AllenRbrts

I am not aware of any hatches that open inward. In general most inverted cats stay floating even for years, so they have plenty of floatation already.

The material for the hatch is not really the problem, it is the engineering of the hatch that is a problem. Having transparent lens I think is intended to allow light to enter in case of an inverted hull.

The hatches are generally designed for both ingress and egress. This is both for rescue and the idea that for an inverted cat, being inside might actually be better than outside.

Perhaps it's just the angle is deceptive but the image in the "funjohnson" post and the recessing makes it look that way.

I have seen them open on cats when at anchor which, whilst it may assist with ventilation, is to me an invitation to disaster.

I am aware of the good reasons for access to the wing deck and ventilation in an inverted cat and having read a number of survival case histories incidents thereof would have them in any multihull I owned but, they would be designed in a manner which ensures hull water tight integrity.

[Brewgyver]

Originally Posted by Brewgyver

So, for how many years were Lagoons built in South Africa and delivered to the Caribbean and U.S. by sailing on their own bottoms???

Oops! Pretty obviously I meant Leopard, not Lagoon. I just literally did the when I saw my post!

[AllenRbrts]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

Perhaps it's just the angle is deceptive but the image in the "funjohnson" post and the recessing makes it look that way.



I have seen them open on cats when at anchor which, whilst it may assist with ventilation, is to me an invitation to disaster.



I am aware of the good reasons for access to the wing deck and ventilation in an inverted cat and having read a number of survival case histories incidents thereof would have them in any multihull I owned but, they would be designed in a manner which ensures hull water tight integrity.

Could not agree more that using the escape hatch as ventilation is asking for trouble. This is what that could look like.:. San Blas Panama March 2019, forgot to close before sailing. Port hull is aground

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Brewgyver

So, for how many years were Lagoons built in South Africa and delivered to the Caribbean and U.S. by sailing on their own bottoms???

Ahhh. Never