Getting Rigging Done on a Budget. Ideas?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Dave9111

I think that crossing oceans is an whole different topic and requires a lot of different gear. Watermakers, satellite comm equipment, etc.
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Not true at all. I've crossed a few oceans and never had either of those.
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It seems like there are a growing number of power cruising cats out there.



Sailing a big boat requires significant strength and skill. Skipping the sails and just going with twin engines makes things a lot easier and cheaper. Plus a lot less complexity. Yet due to the twin engines, you still have some redundancy in case of an engine issue.

Dave, you seem to have missed that many of us sail because we enjoy the sport, enjoy developing the skills that are needed, and don't like motoring due to noise, incremental expense for each mile, and ecological contamination.

If all you want is to get somewhere, a motor yacht works well, but it is to me a boring process. As the bumper stickers say, "I'd rather be sailing".

The OP, from his various posts, shares this attitude and is trying to balance between his options in a SAiLING boat. The balance is not solely a fiscal issue, yet managing costs is a factor for us all, hence his queries re rigs.

And yes, there are a growing number of power cats seen in these waters... close to shore. Not so much offshore.

Jim

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Chotu

One thing you're way off on is performance sailing. With dagger boards and better numbers than a Gunboat, this is a sailing BEAST. It'll sail much better than almost anything else out there and eat monos for breakfast. This is a pure sailing boat. That's why it's hard to go power as well, even if it's the logical choice financially.

I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm but if you are looking for this level of performance then $60000 for a rig is the least of your budget worries. Ignoring the cost of high tech sails that will not last long, winches, clutches, halyards and even simple items like reefing blocks to handle the forces on a performance cat of this size and the replacement costs for breakages will be very very high.

Sailing performance is related to application. A charterer will be more than happy to sail downwind or on a reach to a glorious swimming spot and return to a mooring or marina under power and break out the BBQ for dinner. A racer with crew will be looking for extreme speed, light weight, no electric winches, small battery banks and holes in the crew toothbrushes. A cruiser with limited crew will be looking for high average speeds and ease of handling, to reach the destination without breaking anything, heavier electric winches, bigger batteries and a whole lot of comfort enhancing necessities that will add weight and cost that will need to be compensated for by a lighter structure, high tech materials, carbon and a design using FEA that will of course add more cost if performance to to be maintained.

So I totally agree that cats can have a very high performance but as a rule of thumb you can have any 2 from 3 speed, comfort, cost.
What is the size and expected weight of your vessel?

You can't make blanket statements about sailing cats any more than you can make them about sailing monohulls based on an Azimut power boat monohull. Ever boat is different. Bad idea to generalize that stuff.

I did not make a blanket statement I said "a lot" of cats have poor sailing performance. Many cats are heavy and have extreme windage as a result have poor lightwind performance and do not go to windward and make good use of their engines. They are also perfect for a large section of the buying public and in particular the charter market.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Rigs are engineered so the welds are not heavily loaded.

Unlike many think a mast except maybe where the boom connects really isn’t very heavily loaded, the rigging takes load, the boom really should be in compression.
Excepting where the boom mounts, I’m not sure how heavily loaded that section is.

[drcat]

Perhaps the most unusual aluminum mast set up I've read about is the use of an aluminum light pole. Done for a much smaller monohull but it work fine for sailing up to Nova Scotia and Newfoundland then back down to Newport RI. Also used some aluminum round extrusion for boom. See zartmancruising dot com for their story. Probably too short, not robust and not sophisticated enough for your needs.
I would agree in using Lith ion powered winch ratchet. Recent Sailing Doodles youtube shows one being used. Also Harbor Freight has 12v Lith ion 60ftlbs torque one for $130 less the easy 20% off coupon or about $104. No idea how sturdy it is but lot less than the marine ones made specifically for winches and a fraction of the cost of an electric winch. I've always wondered if a regular winch could be converted to electric using the geared down 12v motors used to move awning arms to pull cover over a load on large dump trucks.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm but if you are looking for this level of performance then $60000 for a rig is the least of your budget worries. Ignoring the cost of high tech sails that will not last long, winches, clutches, halyards and even simple items like reefing blocks to handle the forces on a performance cat of this size and the replacement costs for breakages will be very very high.

Sailing performance is related to application. A charterer will be more than happy to sail downwind or on a reach to a glorious swimming spot and return to a mooring or marina under power and break out the BBQ for dinner. A racer with crew will be looking for extreme speed, light weight, no electric winches, small battery banks and holes in the crew toothbrushes. A cruiser with limited crew will be looking for high average speeds and ease of handling, to reach the destination without breaking anything, heavier electric winches, bigger batteries and a whole lot of comfort enhancing necessities that will add weight and cost that will need to be compensated for by a lighter structure, high tech materials, carbon and a design using FEA that will of course add more cost if performance to to be maintained.

So I totally agree that cats can have a very high performance but as a rule of thumb you can have any 2 from 3 speed, comfort, cost.
What is the size and expected weight of your vessel?



I did not make a blanket statement I said "a lot" of cats have poor sailing performance. Many cats are heavy and have extreme windage as a result have poor lightwind performance and do not go to windward and make good use of their engines. They are also perfect for a large section of the buying public and in particular the charter market.

I don't agree entirely. But I agree mostly. You should probably put a 4th quality in. Speed, comfort, cost and beauty. You can have only 3.

It's a 50x25 cat currently weighing in at 14,000lbs. I have a fair bit of interior left to go but it's not all about carbon. You can make an even lighter boat than a carbon boat if you make good decisions on fitout and construction. The hulls aren't everything. A lot of the weight comes from luxury. And I get that you are saying electric winches are a luxury. They do weigh a lot. But you can also do things like run all the lines to a single monster electric winch.

I am currently running all Electric winches and furling systems on a 50' mono that doesn't even have enough solar to keep up with the refrigerator. It only has 440ah of batteries. I've never even come close to needing to worry about the batteries running electric winches, windlass and furling. No problem whatsoever. My Catamaran already has 440ah in it too. So also no problem. But in addition to that there is just North of 1200 Watts of solar in the cat. So again, literally no electrical issue.

If you think outside the box a bit you can maximize any project.

Certainly I don't need the type of sails you're talking about. It's a performance cruiser. There is a trade-off that you've hit upon I agree completely with. You have to pay a weight penalty for any luxury. The additional automotive starter in weight an electric winch has is an acceptable weight penalty for me to pay for the ability to quickly and easily manage sails no matter how I'm feeling that day.

I have maximized weight savings everywhere. I can afford to spend a little here.

[Mr B]

Buy a mast extrusion direct from the manufacturer,
In any length you want or need,
Ive had 27 metre steel beams delivered on site on an extendable semi,
So getting it delivered isnt a problem,

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by gulfislandfred

You don't need to learn to weld aluminum, if you can find a shop or welder who will work by the hour.


You can learn to cut and fit the aluminum parts, ready to weld, and have the welder assemble them. Even at shop rates, a half hour of welding will do most or all of your rig. Wood tools cut aluminum easily: Table saw, band saw, sawzall. Wear eye protection, use fine tooth, high quality blades (and don't use them for fine woodwork after aluminum)



There are used masts, furlers, and sails around. Check with the shops that set up best of the local racers. They may have used masts, furlers, etc, or know who does.


Boats are being scrapped all the time. Check the big boat yards, find out who does demolition. (Don't take a whole boat for free, along with responsibility for disposal, unless you really know what you're doing! Buy the parts you need, and let someone else take care of the carcass.)



Wire is cheap, and so are swaged on ends at industrial rigging shops. You can often find Norseman type wire ends used, and make your own wires, or splice thimbles into your wire ends, or use industrial nico press type fittings. Lots of wire is used in industrial applications. Those ends are often regulated and engineered. Maybe stronger and more reliable than what we're used to.



Get going with what you can afford: 2 speed manual winches (try long handles for more leverage. If the jib is hard to crank in, you probably have too much sail out. Electric stuff is high maintenance) used sails, etc, and upgrade as you get smarter about what you need and where to find it.

Exactly!!

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Mr B

Buy a mast extrusion direct from the manufacturer,
In any length you want or need,
Ive had 27 metre steel beams delivered on site on an extendable semi,
So getting it delivered isnt a problem,

Yep. I paid a "per kilo" price for my mast section, boom and spreaders.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Unlike many think a mast except maybe where the boom connects really isn’t very heavily loaded, the rigging takes load, the boom really should be in compression.
Excepting where the boom mounts, I’m not sure how heavily loaded that section is.

True. And setup can minimize loads even further, particularly on a cat. End of boom sheeting and using a wide traveller to eliminate the need for a vang will entirely eliminate bending loads on the boom, and greatly reduce loads on the gooseneck.

[Fore and Aft]

I happened to be in a yard when they were scrapping a number of yachts. I asked the guy what was happening with a particular mast. He picked up one end of the mast and said that feels like a $150 in scrap to me. That’s how I ended up with a mast and boom for our 32 foot yacht.
Cheers

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Yep. I paid a "per kilo" price for my mast section, boom and spreaders.

Its amazing how people cant get their heads around that,
Its not a mast to the manufacturer, Its just an extrusion type that they make,
Its cost per Kilo, By the length you want,

Mate curently has a USA RV, His mechanic is looking for an Oshkosh king pin for the front end,
You cant buy one, Hahahaha
I told him to get a king pin set the same size from any truck front end,
Front axles came from the same manufacturer, all of them,
Rockwell Etc, Oshkosh never made a front end, Ever, They bought them in from the manufacturer,
I told him to try Freightliner, Same front end,
Also the same as my front end, I have the same 12 ton Coach,

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

I happened to be in a yard when they were scrapping a number of yachts. I asked the guy what was happening with a particular mast. He picked up one end of the mast and said that feels like a $150 in scrap to me. That’s how I ended up with a mast and boom for our 32 foot yacht.
Cheers

Thats the way to do it, Well done, Good Buy on your part,

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Mr B

Its amazing how people cant get their heads around that,
Its not a mast to the manufacturer, Its just an extrusion type that they make,
Its cost per Kilo, By the length you want,

Mate curently has a USA RV, His mechanic is looking for an Oshkosh king pin for the front end,
You cant buy one, Hahahaha
I told him to get a king pin set the same size from any truck front end,
Front axles came from the same manufacturer, all of them,
Rockwell Etc, Oshkosh never made a front end, Ever, They bought them in from the manufacturer,
I told him to try Freightliner, Same front end,
Also the same as my front end, I have the same 12 ton Coach,

Since there are a lot of marine spar companies out there, and it seems to be the only place to pick up a new aluminum extrusion, I wonder how easy it is to make the actual extrusion template or jig. I mean, couldn’t you just make a template or jig for the extrusion machine, hand it to the extruder, and have them squeeze you out a mast? Does avoiding the marine business entirely?

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Since there are a lot of marine spar companies out there, and it seems to be the only place to pick up a new aluminum extrusion, I wonder how easy it is to make the actual extrusion template or jig. I mean, couldn’t you just make a template or jig for the extrusion machine, hand it to the extruder, and have them squeeze you out a mast? Does avoiding the marine business entirely?

The manufacturer already has the extrusion plate,
Molten Aluminium is squeezed out a die, Then cut to length as it comes out,

Marine spar companys buy the extrusion from the manufacturer,
They are middle men, You pay extra for that,

Get a PDF download direct from the manufacturer for the Extrusion you need,
It will have all the dimensions for any mast you need if they make it,
These are not specialty items, They do make a lot of them,
When they run an extrusion, They might run several miles of it,
Depending on orders they have got previously,

Selden would buy a truckload of extrusions in various sizes, To make masts and booms from,
Selden dont make aluminium Extrusions, They buy it in already made,

[robertmfranklin]

At one point you asked about fastenings. Seems to me, if you think through what is required, everything you need can be assembled inexpensively and fastened without any welding.

Done properly it would look just fine.

Spreaders, mast head fittings, blocks, cleats ... all of that can be fastened and since the forces are almost all sheer the fasteners need not be excessively strong of large.

For example, tangs for shrouds will be pulling almost entirely (although not exclusively) in a direction of sheer load, not a pulling out direction. This seems to be to be the case with everything I can think of.

Even putting 3, 20 foot pieces of aluminum extrusion to create the mast itself
should be relatively easy, if you move away from the idea of welding. I understand that welding aluminum is not an easy task and requires experience and skill.

You can put a mast together as tall as you want by using short pieces of extrusion sized to sleeve into the longer mast sections. Maybe 8 inches into each section, 16 inches total would be enough. A few machine screws would keep the assembly together. All you are doing is keeping the mast sections in alignment with each other.

People make a big deal out of strength in a mast, but as long as the extrusions are lined up, the forces are vertical not sidewards. Masts break when a shroud lets go they do not bend in the middle and snap. Not on a garden variety cruising style mast. The lower end of the inner sleeve can be through bolted and the upper extrusion just slipped over it and secured minimally. In fact you could view the project as being able to transport your mast in 3, 22 foot sections, then assemble on site.

Yes, this takes a little thought, planning and measuring, but as compared to the nightmare of welding aluminum, its basic erector set technology.

You could probably put the whole thing together in your back yard in a couple long weekends for less than $10,000, including all the rigging.

Bob Franklin