Endeavour Catamarans

[jewishprincess]

Does anyone here know anything about Endeavour catamarans? My husband, Bob, is just pulling at the leash to buy one. We are planning a move to Tavernier, Florida, for my job at Mariner's Hospital. He'll be 65ish when we do this and won't be doing anything more than living on it and coastal cruising with an occasional jaunt to the Bahamas. Any opinions?

[Intentional Drifter]

Although they have several attractive features regarding the interior, they are not seen as good sailing cats. Note especially the broad, flat, low bridgedeck. While this gives you the vast interior, they will pound, horribly. See Kanter's review in the book "Cruising Catamarans". I believe he noted that some of them have been subjected to enough slamming to result in delamination.

See: http://www.sailcopress.com/elusive_c...aran_perfo.htm

A picture of the Endeavor is second to the last.

Casual coastal cruising in calm seas would probably be OK. Crossing the Gulf Stream in anything less than ideal conditions (which, of course, may change quickly)? I wouldn't.

ID

[jewishprincess]

I don't know how much sailing we will actually do, as I'll still be working as only Bob will be retired. The primary usage of whatever we end up buying will be for living in it and occasionally sailing. I mention the Bahamas because we will be so close. I lived for almost a decade in South Florida and made many a jaunt to the Bahamas via boat. I don't think anyone wants to make that trek unless the water is as smooth as glass.

[Sunspot Baby]

If you’re not going to sail it much anyway, consider a power cat. If I had to buy an Endeavor, that’s the way I would go. The sailing versions just do not perform well.

If you’re going to wait until the Gulf Stream is “smooth as glass” to cross, that means there is no wind and you’re going to motor anyway. For what it’s worth, I have made several crossings in our catamaran when the conditions, while not dangerous, were less than comfortable.

Sunspot Baby

[PHIL+MARYANNE]

I believe that Manta catamarans owes its lineage to Endeavour, and Manta are located right in Sarasota, FL. We've looked at just about every cruising cat on the market, and I think they might just be the best for what you're looking for. The company folks, especially Dan and Pat - the two owners - are fantastic. And the folks who own Manta's are a wonderful lot, always ready to help and tell you how to get the most of your Manta. Checkout their website at mantacatamarans.com, especially the owners' testemonials.

We have purchased Manta #112 and expect to set sail around November 1. Their powercats seem great, too.
Cheers!

[nero]

I noticed your post about endeavour cats. My fiance owns a 2000 36ft endeavour cat that she is looking to sell. It it is in Trindad currently and will be for sale at a very good price. It is a sad story for the sale, if you are interested you may respond to this e-mail or call my cell 267-784-6828. Currently in Pennsylvania. Very well outfitted boat. -Scott

[imagine2frolic]

Here in N.E. FLorida there is a 44ft Endeavour power cat for sale in the marina.......i2f

[allezaubon]

Just going through these "old" mails.

We are looking to purchase a Pre-Owned Manta, I have always been a little concerned at the low Bridge deck clearance at the stern, however owners have assured me that due to the gentle curves, slamming is mitigated. Let's face it all cats slap when going windward.



Would be great to hear your comments - we're also considering a Dean440 and Freydis 44.

Love to hear your views ??

Thanks

[colemj]

Wow, those are different boats. We own a Manta, so here is my take:

The Manta is the smallest boat of your list. It's original form was a 36' boat designed by Eric LeRouge, the same naval architect as the Freydis. Manta stretched the plans to 38' originally, stretched them again to 40', then again to 42'. All of the added length was to the bows and sterns and have no impact on interior space. While the interior of the Manta is very well thought out, designed and equipped (the best of the 3 boats in your list), it is still a 36' boat on the inside.

And the outside. The added length was necessary to retain the sailing characteristics as more gear and other appointments were added by Manta to the original design. The Manta is an extremely well-outfitted boat right out of the factory. But the bridgedeck clearance is about middle of the road for catamarans, and lower than that for performance catamarans (it is the middle of the 3 on your list). However, LeRouge's bridgedeck designs are brilliant. They are completely organic, with no protuberances and no flat surfaces. The bridgedeck starts well aft of the bows and is compound curved in both dimensions. This tends to redirect wave forces back into themselves rather than allowing them to dissipate all of their energy on a flat surface. Like you said, all cats will find sea conditions where they slam, but having sailed several different designs, the Manta slams less than others - even those with significantly higher clearance.

Of the three boats on your list, the Manta will be the best laid out, equipped and built boat.

The Freydis has the same bridgedeck arrangement, only with much higher clearance than the Manta. The Freydis is what the Manta wants to be when it grows up. Interestingly, the original owner of Manta who (ahem) "borrowed" and stretched the LeRouge design for the Manta, also (again, ahem) "borrowed" the Freydis and stretched it into the Ocean Cat. The Freydis will be a sweet sailing boat - running circles around the other two on your list. I suspect that slamming will be a rare occurrence with that boat.

Freydis was a design and not a manufacturer and could have been built by a number of yards or possibly individuals (I don't know if LeRouge licensed individual builders). The quality of build, fit and finish and layout and appointment could vary. If you find one to your liking that fits your style of layout and appointments and criteria for mast height etc, I'd go with the Freydis over the other 2 on your list. However, I don't suspect you will find many of them for sale since there aren't as many made.

Run, don't walk, from the Dean 440. Dean made decent, although heavy and low, boats in the past and Peter Dean is very well respected, but you don't want the 440. I know several of the latter boats out of the factory have some serious build quality problems. I don't know if the earlier ones did. The design is massively heavy - it is almost 30,000lbs as listed by the factory literature, but every boat I have seen sits well below its waterline and very very low to the water. The bridgedeck clearance is abysmal, and the shape of the bridgedeck is flat and the bridgedeck is carried almost the full length of the boat. The interiors are showcase homes, if that is of over-riding importance.

Please be aware that these are only my opinions and limited factual data on the Freydis and Dean. Maybe a Dean 440 owner will provide different, and possibly, better information than me. I just ask them to respect my opinion and not direct comments at me, but rather stick to the boat.

Mark

[Captain Bill]

Princess, I'm glad to see so many opinions from people who don't own an Endeavourcat, now opinions from someone who actually owns one. It really depends on which model you wish to buy. Assuming you are talking about the sailing models. There is a major difference between the 34/36 footers and the 44 footer. The smaller cats have a lot of room for their size, but very low bridge deck clearance. The 44 footer on the otherhand has much more bridge deck clearance. The older 30 footers actually have a central "hull" that sits in the water. I've never been on one of those but I've been told they don't slam that bad because the wave don't actually get under the hull very well. As for liveaboard comfort you will be hard pressed to beat these cats for the size and price. I have a 2002 44 ft sailcat. We have all the bells and whistles, which are pretty much standard now. As you're husband is getting older the electric winches will allow you to sail a lot longer. I've had a few issues with the boat but all in all they have been relatively minor. My wife and I have cruised for up to 6 weeks in comfort and when permanently retired next year will be cruising full time.

If you are already looking at these boats you must be personnally past the floating condo looks. If you buy one you will hear all kind of jokes about the "Floating condo" or "Floating seawall" and such. At least with the 44 you'll also be able to have a good laugh when this "floating Condo" out runs and out points the jokesters. I' have heard that the 34's and 36's don't sail quite as well as the 44 but they still do quite well. In a good wind I regularly sail in the 9-10 knot range. With the 44 footer there is no need to look for glassy smooth seas, especially if you are sailing. The boat has a bit of a problem motoring straight into 2-4 foot seas, but then again most cats do. I regularly hold my full speed tacking through 100 degrees over the ground. The apparent wind is actually less but you loose about 10 degrees on each side to leeway that close hauled. Inside of that angle speed bleeds off fairly rapidly. There are lots of know nothings who blow off the sailing ability of this cat but they usually are looking at my stern. I was out a couple of weeks ago in 15-20 knots and was having a good day when I saw an acquaintance from a local marina out in his monohull. He had been making the usual jokes the weekend before. We decided to have a little impromptu race upwind. I was running 10 knots on a reach and blowing him away so we decided to turn upwind. To outpoint him I did pinch up a lot closer than optimal and did slow down to 7.5 knots. I had him by at least 10 degrees and he was pointing as high as he could slowing from near 8 knots down to about 5. You should have seen the astonished looks at the marina pot luck a couple of days later when he was telling people how the floating condo had kicked his butt. In lighter winds the boat sails quite well too. In 8 knots of wind I can sail upwind over 5. I have tacked the boat with forward speed of 1.7 knots without using an engine. Note that this is on the standard sails, not the optional spinnaker. With respect to seakeeping, I have sailed the boat in seas up to 8 feet with no issues. You do not have to wait for glass smooth seas to sail this boat in the ocean. The boat does have a narrow beam for a 44 and does have a more rolling motion than most other cats of its size. Putting the sails up stops this motion.

For people trying to point you at Manta's you might want to note that Manta is out of buisiness, Endeavour is not. You should also note that for live aboard consideration the Endeavour 44 is much bigger than the Manta 42. In fact the Endeavour 36 has more interior room. At our marina the boat next to us is a Manta 42. The woman who owns it was astonished at how much more room we had inside. Before we bought the Endeavour we were looking seriously at the Mantas but decided we were getting a lot more boat with the Endeavour. Since we were planning to essentially live aboard at some point we decided that we could give up some perceived sailing capability for the liveaboard comfort. I have little doubt that the Manta could out perform the Endeavour in a racing situation. The Manta uses the same sails and rig that the 44 uses, but is lighter and has less windage, but then again most of the time at least we are cruising, not racing.

I'll be happy to answer any specific question you'ld like to ask.

[colemj]

Hi Capt Bill,

The original post inquiring about Endeavorcats was 4 years ago, so your excellent summary probably won't help her now. The thread got reactivated as a Manta/Freydis/Dean one, which is WAY off the original topic.

Maybe a moderator could pull allezaubon's post and mine and put them in a new thread, while leaving Capt Bill's post here?

That would keep the information pertaining to Endeavor catamarans intact and succinct for the search engine and posterity.

Mark

[allezaubon]

Thank you both for the valuable information, apologies for picking up on an old thread................new to this game

I am also looking at a St. Francis 44, however a little out of my range, all things being equal I will focus on a pre-Owned Manta...............

Thanks again your knowledgeable input was most helpful

[Southern Star]

I think Captain Bill's comprehensive and thoughtful analysis can remain where it is for posterity as it relates to the subject header 'Endeavour Catamarans', even if the poster of the original question has moved on.

Brad

[Captain Bill]

Duh!!! Guess next time I'll look at the OP date.

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

... The older 30 footers actually have a central "hull" that sits in the water. I've never been on one of those but I've been told they don't slam that bad because the wave don't actually get under the hull very well. As for liveaboard comfort you will be hard pressed to beat these cats for the size and price.......

I've spent a fair amount of time on the 30' boat. I think it's impressive for it's size. Designing it as an outboard powered boat with a small cockpit (for a cat) allowed for an immense amount of room in the interior for it's size. I've sailed the boat on flat water and she was quick, the 7/8 jib tacked easily. The only item I didn't care for was the helm position, but this is a personal preference.

I would definitely recommend a Endeavour 30' for protected water sailing, and can't think of any boat in it's size class that can touch it at anchor or dockside.