Curiousity about cats

[cdreid]

Always loved the idea of cats. Read a lot of stories about upside down cats and people paying 3 mortgages for a slip.... but wow theyre .. relatively .. affordable now for non millionaires...

Anyway im curious.. how many of you would feel safe making an ocean crossing in say a 22 to 28 cat??
And as far as "seaworthiness" and "dont want to die" what would be the comparable lengths? Used cats in their 20's are relatively reasonably priced now but sailing up deep ocean waves in a 23' cat sounds.. pretty horrifying.. whereas a 40' monohull not so much. Just curious

[TrentePieds]

Ah! THOSE kinda cats! My kitty cat with a number of miles under his keel sez that he only does monos. He sez multis make him sick :-)!

TP

[catsketcher]

Gday CD

I have had multis since I was 14. My first one was a 24ft Piver Nugget tri, then a 31 ft Twiggy tri and my current (for 22 years) 38ft cat. I also built and designed a 6 and 7 metre cat for inshore use.

The problem with your question is that it is open to interpretation. I am constantly amused (befuddled) by people who still proclaim that cats are bad/dangerous/can't sail properly or whatever. Cats are huge in the variability and sadly like many things on the internet, the extremes seem to be used to bash opponents over the head. So extremely fast, or commodiuos cats are used as examples of bad design affecting all cats. This is of course really dumb.

What is not open to interpretation is that cats rely heavily on the square cube rule for stability and therefore safety. My 19ft cat is about 16 times less stable than my 38ft cat. They are sort of similar in concept and build (I built both of them) and both sail and cruise well. But the little one has much less than 1/2 of the displacement (It is around 600kg whereas the big one is about 4000-4500kg. It is also about half as wide (3.5m as opposed to 7m). Stability comes from weight times beam, so the little cat is much much less stable.

This is an incontrovertible fact about making things bigger - the square cube rule is one reason we don't have huge birds, or large insects and why you don't see massive bridges built as simple beams.

But the square cube rule is a real pain for the wallet. A friend had a 6000kg 40ft cat he was building when I was building mine. He paid $16 000 for his rig whereas I paid $6000. Although stability goes up by the 4th power as you increase in size, so too does cost.

So for me, and my not so huge wallet, I find that a lightish 38ft cruiser/performance cat (which has the same displacement as most production 32 footers) is safe offshore but does not break the bank. Going under 32 ft is problematic with bridgdecks and accommodation but it can be done, you just have to go Wharram like to get a measure of safety. Look up Rory McDougall's exploits on the 23ft Wharram "Cooking fat" to see what can be done.

I have two acquantainces who circumnavigated in 10 metre Crowther designs (Crowther 10 and a derivative). They really liked their boats. You can pick something similar up and go cruising easily. They have sufficient stability for ocean crossings yet are affordable and comfortable. You don't have to keep up with the Joneses on the water.

cheers

Phil

[Jon Hacking]

Hi CD - CatSketcher's post above is spot on (& well written).

While we know folks who've crossed the Atlantic in small Warram's, & folks who've crossed the Pacific in 10m cats, they're already very experienced sailors.

In the 80s we cruised a 40' Piver AA tri that had sailed most of the way around the world. We loved her, & she was home (in the Caribbean & Pacific) for 8 years. But she only weighed 5 tons, so while she could sometimes sail at wind-speed, we were reefing at 15 knots of wind, & sweating at 25.

Ocelot is a much more comfortable cat but not as fast. We start reefing at about 20kts but we've faced 50kt squalls when crossing oceans, & much more when at anchor. We've cruised her maybe 50,000 miles over 20 years, & have always felt safe in her. She's heavy, as cats go, but very strong & rugged.

But you're right that smaller, lighter multihulls sometimes don't give that safe, secure feeling when the weather starts to crap out, which is one reason we pay so much attention to weather. They're also less tolerant of toys (weight) on board, & my wife likes her washing machine & musical instruments.

Big cruising cats are extremely unlikely to flip. They might pitch-pole if you surf down the front of a wave & dig the bows into the back of the next wave, & we've come close to that, but that was really my fault for not dragging warps to slow us down. It's pretty easy for an experienced sailor to avoid.

And, of course, most fiberglass multihulls are foam-sandwich construction, which means they have enough built-in floatation that they can't really sink. But they can catch fire, so we have lots of extinguishers on board. And, while foam-sandwich is light & very stiff, it doesn't like impacts, like when we accidentally landed on a sleeping whale's back & when he dove, his tail whomped us a good one on the port quarter.

We've crossed oceans in monohulls, but prefer not to spend weeks heeled over. Multihulls tend to twitch more, so the movement is faster but usually less extreme. But as any sailor will tell you, ANY boat in a storm is a small boat. As a general rule, bigger is safer & more comfortable.

[cdreid]

Thanks to both of you. When i was reading about cats millenia ago there was a lot of resistance to them..and they were all crazy expensive. Good to know thats ending. No i wont be buying a cat unless someone gives me a winning lottery ticlet but seeing you guys beached on some deserted carribean island fills me with envy

[ejs]

Sailed from San Francisco to New Zealand and met lots of folks who had done the trip on cats. Lots of them had switched from monos. I have yet to meet someone who switched the other way.

[cdreid]

Gee thanks i was all ok with "well i cant afford a cat but they cant bluewater so HAH" now im just sad :P

[Spokey Doke]

Originally Posted by Jon Hacking

Hi CD - CatSketcher's post above is spot on (& well written).

While we know folks who've crossed the Atlantic in small Warram's, & folks who've crossed the Pacific in 10m cats, they're already very experienced sailors.

In the 80s we cruised a 40' Piver AA tri that had sailed most of the way around the world. We loved her, & she was home (in the Caribbean & Pacific) for 8 years. But she only weighed 5 tons, so while she could sometimes sail at wind-speed, we were reefing at 15 knots of wind, & sweating at 25.

Ocelot is a much more comfortable cat but not as fast. We start reefing at about 20kts but we've faced 50kt squalls when crossing oceans, & much more when at anchor. We've cruised her maybe 50,000 miles over 20 years, & have always felt safe in her. She's heavy, as cats go, but very strong & rugged.

But you're right that smaller, lighter multihulls sometimes don't give that safe, secure feeling when the weather starts to crap out, which is one reason we pay so much attention to weather. They're also less tolerant of toys (weight) on board, & my wife likes her washing machine & musical instruments.

Big cruising cats are extremely unlikely to flip. They might pitch-pole if you surf down the front of a wave & dig the bows into the back of the next wave, & we've come close to that, but that was really my fault for not dragging warps to slow us down. It's pretty easy for an experienced sailor to avoid.

And, of course, most fiberglass multihulls are foam-sandwich construction, which means they have enough built-in floatation that they can't really sink. But they can catch fire, so we have lots of extinguishers on board. And, while foam-sandwich is light & very stiff, it doesn't like impacts, like when we accidentally landed on a sleeping whale's back & when he dove, his tail whomped us a good one on the port quarter.

We've crossed oceans in monohulls, but prefer not to spend weeks heeled over. Multihulls tend to twitch more, so the movement is faster but usually less extreme. But as any sailor will tell you, ANY boat in a storm is a small boat. As a general rule, bigger is safer & more comfortable.

As a cat-curious mono guy, this is a good read...I have not only been put off by the price tags (and sizes), but the fact that so many of the new cats out there seem to be fat RV's with a spar stuck on top for show. I'm still dumbfounded that you essentially can't even see the sails from the helm on a bunch of them, and can't see/access things like the traveler...

On the mono side, I've been very interested in the smaller (~30ft), fast, light, ocean racing designs turned minimalist cruisers: Pogo's, Django's, Mojito's...and finally have found at least a few cats that are on a similar page (the new IC36 from Independent Catamarans tops that list currently). I'd love to find more in this category, esp. those built around hybrid electric systems that use that big roof for solar and have regenerative motors...all while I get used to upper 30's as a target length.

[chris mac]

Originally Posted by cdreid

Thanks to both of you. When i was reading about cats millenia ago there was a lot of resistance to them..and they were all crazy expensive. Good to know thats ending. No i wont be buying a cat unless someone gives me a winning lottery ticlet but seeing you guys beached on some deserted carribean island fills me with envy

Our cat has gone round twice with previous owners(we have pictures of her in australia) so she can definately cross oceans. What I really get a laugh from though is when other sailors say they wanted a cat but couldn't afford one. Through the conversation I typically find out that they paid more for their 40 some foot mono than we did for our 42 foot cat.
The deals are out there, just like with monos. Just a little harder to find

[cdreid]

Originally Posted by chris mac

Our cat has gone round twice with previous owners(we have pictures of her in australia) so she can definately cross oceans. What I really get a laugh from though is when other sailors say they wanted a cat but couldn't afford one. Through the conversation I typically find out that they paid more for their 40 some foot mono than we did for our 42 foot cat.
The deals are out there, just like with monos. Just a little harder to find

Price is.. ridiculously variable amongst sailboats. As for cats i looked today and last night a bit.. i can buy a 37 to 40 foot monohull in good sailing condition for 40k. A 30 in excellent condition for 30. But a cat.. from what i see you there are a few in the 25ish range for about 40 and.. they need work. Id love to find a 30' cat for 40k thats sailable. Id just have to wait for that perfect weather i guess to make my way to aussie ? :P

[cdreid]

Originally Posted by Spokey Doke

. I'd love to find more in this category, esp. those built around hybrid electric systems that use that big roof for solar and have regenerative motors...all while I get used to upper 30's as a target length.

You are talking about boats WAY out of my pricerange but.. check out sailing uma. Bought a 3k boat and fixed it up by hand (i think 27 to 30 foot??). Ripped out the diesel and followed advice from auto converters and installed a forklift motor .. total cost 1500. Changed it out because they wanted more regenerative power from the propeller after cruising the ARCTIC... i think a company is sponsoring them and they have a high tech system that costs i believe around 8k. The cost of solar, electric motors etc is getting.. very affordable.
Theres another guy who got an oooold cat for basically nothing. Converted it to electric. Stays local to his coast but motors all day at 5 knots using 0 battery (he has a LOT of solar). Not sure id want to ride with him in the deep ocean but... putting around by the coast all day via propeller with zero fuel cost seems pretty sweet

Note: i think you'll be stunned w what they did to the interior. Just trying things and developing (theyre both architecture grads). Some boat design company needs to hire them... their tiny boats interior is far superior to anything ive seen in much bigger boats

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by cdreid

i can buy a 37 to 40 foot monohull in good sailing condition for 40k.

lol where? I tried to buy a couple a few years ago, even went to survey on one. None of the dozens of boats in that size and price range that I looked at were "in good sailing condition".

Many of them looked nice, but e.g. were full of corrosion (endeavor steel grid), had baaaaaad blistering (morgans), wood rot (most boats of that age, esp under portholes and chainplates), needed engine work, or were just woefully unloved and needed much work.

[carlosproa]

Originally Posted by cdreid

Price is.. ridiculously variable amongst sailboats. As for cats i looked today and last night a bit.. i can buy a 37 to 40 foot monohull in good sailing condition for 40k. A 30 in excellent condition for 30. But a cat.. from what i see you there are a few in the 25ish range for about 40 and.. they need work. Id love to find a 30' cat for 40k thats sailable. Id just have to wait for that perfect weather i guess to make my way to aussie ? :P

Depending on where you are an old edelcat35 is affordable

[carlosproa]

Originally Posted by cdreid

Gee thanks i was all ok with "well i cant afford a cat but they cant bluewater so HAH" now im just sad :P

Affordability may be found if you willing and having the time to build.Many Warrans has been successfully built and sailed all over the world for a fraction of a similar size cat. Google or YouTube search for ‘Lucky Fish ‘ and I think you might still find the early videos of a 40 Ft Warran.

I have always been fascinated by Harryproa design. I have built in the past small pacific proas, and like the simplicity of build, and sail management with the negatives of payload. I curse the day I was talked into selling my 21 ft proa - best vessel for gunkama hauling in the Florida keys as you could fit a pop up tent between the outriggers and the vaka and ama. No need for an outboard or a rudder, balancing the sail plan very easy for self tracking with the ocasional paddle steering to correct. Used a crab claw sail that had one set of reef points as well as scandalizing lines when the wind piped up.

However, the Harryproa concept takes the pacific proa design and adds livable space while keeping safety with free standing flexible rigging. You could get the benefits of a 40ft hull length and very easy sail management, and learn the basics of shunting is quite easy. The downside are less payload than a similar boat, resale value low as it is not a common vessel.

On the farther side of the proa spectrum if you like speed and a bit crammed living spaces the. Look no further than Russ Brown’s (son of Jim Brown) pacific proa Jzerró or Cymba.

[cdreid]

Originally Posted by carlosproa

Affordability may be found if you willing and having the time to build.Many Warrans has been successfully built and sailed all over the world for a fraction of a similar size cat. Google or YouTube search for ‘Lucky Fish ‘ and I think you might still find the early videos of a 40 Ft Warran.

.On the farther side of the proa spectrum if you like speed and a bit crammed living spaces the. Look no further than Russ Brown’s (son of Jim Brown) pacific proa Jzerró or Cymba.

Ive looked at wharrams. A lot of those 25k boats are wharrams i think. I could see specifically buying one with a good hull and rigging and fixing it up. But honestly im old and.. strong but dont have the kind of energy to stand in the sun sanding and cutting all day for 6 months. WHen i was young ..... sigh

Im not buying for 4 years and ill probably buy a 20 to learn to sail on for a few months before i buy. Maybe ill find an amazing deal on an old cruising cat that isnt rotten or blistering

A 40' cat would be.. amazing lol. As long as i never ever ever had to dock it longer than 4 hours :P