Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 31-07-2022, 05:08   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Kennebunk ME
Boat: Owner built 60’ Aluminum Expedition Yacht.
Posts: 1,850
Anti-Capsize Technology and Systems

The purpose of this thread is to post systems available, discussions of the technology and reviews.
This is a serious subject. Please back up statements with facts.
Some systems monitor rigging structural condition as well so while most of these discussions might concern catamarans, owners of monohulls could be interested.
Captain Mark and the manatee crew.
Manateeman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2022, 05:17   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Kennebunk ME
Boat: Owner built 60’ Aluminum Expedition Yacht.
Posts: 1,850
Re: Anti-Capsize Technology and Systems

Matt Johnson provided me with the first information on this subject and thus deserves credit and our appreciation.
The anti-capsize system is called Up Side Up Easy.
The manufacturer is Ocean Data Systems in France.
Thank you again Matt.
Captain Mark and the manatee crew.
Manateeman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2022, 14:22   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW
Boat: Chamberlin 11.6 catamaran
Posts: 650
Re: Anti-Capsize Technology and Systems

Sam Goodchild goes into a little of the system on his Multi 50. At about 6 minutes in he shows how the "Upisde Up" cleats work. It seems easy to make and could be useful for having a panic line led below, operating one of these cleats as well as an electronic version.



Back in the late 80s, I was aboard the racing tri Verbatim. Ian Johnston showed me a line led below that ran along the underdeck from the cockpit forward. It was like a bus stop line on the old buses. Pulling the line released a cleat outside. Simple and effective.
catsketcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2022, 14:32   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 106
Re: Anti-Capsize Technology and Systems

that system looks great. Paricularly the ability to have it release by setting parameters on a computer. Why not a mono hull as well? Sounds like a great system for off shore passages where the autopilot is used alot
dhenline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2022, 14:43   #5
Registered User

Join Date: May 2022
Posts: 449
Re: Anti-Capsize Technology and Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhenline View Post
that system looks great. Paricularly the ability to have it release by setting parameters on a computer. Why not a mono hull as well? Sounds like a great system for off shore passages where the autopilot is used alot
What use would it be on a monohull? Wind alone can’t cause a catastrophic capsize. We sail double handed ocean passages, and nobody is EVER more than an arm’s reach from the helm. Do people really sail catamarans sitting in the saloon while the boat is on autopilot? That just seems—dumb.
ItDepends is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2022, 15:36   #6
Registered User
 
Training Wheels's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Left coast.
Posts: 1,439
Re: Anti-Capsize Technology and Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItDepends View Post
Do people really sail catamarans sitting in the saloon while the boat is on autopilot? That just seems—dumb.


Yes, sailing has become an inside sport.
Training Wheels is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2022, 15:51   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 106
Re: Anti-Capsize Technology and Systems

on a mono or a cat, I could envision it being useful for single handed sailing. probably moderately useful with a crew but obviously less so.
dhenline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2022, 18:59   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW
Boat: Chamberlin 11.6 catamaran
Posts: 650
Re: Anti-Capsize Technology and Systems

Cats have large cockpits, with sheets often a long way from each other. As for needing to reach things from the helm, I would be more interested in the distance from the autopilot controls, being behind the wheel is not somewhere I spend much time at all offshore. I once commented on a friends exposed steering position as he helmed his cat he had circumnavigated upon into our bay. He scoffed at my concerns and told me he hardly ever was on the helm as the autopilot did almost all the steering.

I often spend time inside whilst sailing offshore. I have great visibility inside my cabin and can see around me while I check the navigation, get something to eat, or just get out of the sun. Two steps and I am outside, for larger cats, the distance is greater but I think being able to be "inside" whilst having great visibility is one of a catamaran's greatest assets. It keeps me far fresher than being always exposed to the elements.

So some sort of sheet release system could be a good thing for some, but
catsketcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2022, 19:24   #9
Registered User
 
Dave_S's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Schionning Waterline 1480
Posts: 1,884
Re: Anti-Capsize Technology and Systems

I have heard of a system that is purely mechanical and works on the angle of the hull, so it activates only once you have lifted a hull or started to pitch on a cat.

It functioned by a pendulum that held the sheet until the pendulum reached an adjustable pre-set angle that you set to suit your sphincter threshold. You could have the sheet loose on the bitter end or you can have a loop of as much line as you desired on and it would either let the sheet go entirely or only release that which was in the loop. It could be set laterally and longitudinaly.

I have never seen it, only had it described, but it seems a medium-simple device to design and maybe it is out there to purchase. I see some potential flaws to the arrangement where it could release prematurely or when you don't want it to punching into a wave.

I have seen a cat in a race lift a hull to the point of balance which luckily came down right side up but the speed at which it rose was much too fast for a person to release the sheet from a winch, you could only manage it if you had it in your hand.
__________________
Regards
Dave
Dave_S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2022, 19:30   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: oriental
Boat: crowther trimaran 33
Posts: 4,406
Re: Anti-Capsize Technology and Systems

what about having the autopilot automatically fall off if heel angle is too great?
seandepagnier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2022, 22:21   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW
Boat: Chamberlin 11.6 catamaran
Posts: 650
Talking Re: Anti-Capsize Technology and Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_S View Post
I have heard of a system that is purely mechanical and works on the angle of the hull, so it activates only once you have lifted a hull or started to pitch on a cat.

It functioned by a pendulum that held the sheet until the pendulum reached an adjustable pre-set angle that you set to suit your sphincter threshold. You could have the sheet loose on the bitter end or you can have a loop of as much line as you desired on and it would either let the sheet go entirely or only release that which was in the loop. It could be set laterally and longitudinaly.

I have never seen it, only had it described, but it seems a medium-simple device to design and maybe it is out there to purchase. I see some potential flaws to the arrangement where it could release prematurely or when you don't want it to punching into a wave.

I have seen a cat in a race lift a hull to the point of balance which luckily came down right side up but the speed at which it rose was much too fast for a person to release the sheet from a winch, you could only manage it if you had it in your hand.
Gday Dave

The problem with pendulums is that they work best on non accelerating reference frames. Our boats are subject to many accelerations which could cause the pendulum to sway in a way that does not correspond to heel. Same problem with resonance - regular small impulses could cause the pendulum to release the sheet when sailing safely.

I think someone like Sean, who can design autopilot software using small electronic components found cheaply in phones, could work out how to incorporate rate gyros and accelerometer data into a great little setup connected to a Raspberry Pi which sends signals to a relay. Of course there is no money in this, but i don't know what to do myself.

As for bearing away Sean, that would be great for downwind work. When going upwind I would want the cat to go into the wind. There is always that dangerous angle, usually a beam reach, where you can go either way to reduce sail pressure, so the bearing away or heading up response would need input from a wind direction meter. Maybe an add on for PyPilot perhaps?
catsketcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2022, 00:38   #12
Registered User
 
Franziska's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Panschwitz, Germany
Boat: Woods Mira 35 Catamaran
Posts: 3,103
Re: Anti-Capsize Technology and Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by seandepagnier View Post
what about having the autopilot automatically fall off if heel angle is too great?
Good idea if the wind is from behind. Combine it with a system which releases the genoa sheets.

Have the system somehow round up aggressively if a huge increase in wind speed happens on any upwind course.

Question is how would you factor wave action and direction in?
Franziska is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2022, 01:13   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 207
Re: Anti-Capsize Technology and Systems

Relying on electronics to prevent a capsize is a high maintenenace, regular test exercise. They also require a high degree of kine management so the sheets can run freely if released.
Works on racing multis, and with paid crew, neither of whom need it unless they are shorthanded. Not so much for the weekend warrior.

On the cargo proa prototype Cargo Ferry – Harryproa we are using a near zero cost, near idiot proof system to release the sheets at a predetermined angle of heel or pitch. The release is pretty easy. The tricky bit was ensuring the sheet is dumped even if it is cleated, on a winch or someone is standing on it.

Might be sailing by Xmas, I'll let you know how it works.

The 'zone of death', aka the point of sail between safely luffing or bearing away that Phil describes to prevent capsize is one of those things that need not be. With an unstayed mast, you simply release the sheet. On any point of sail. No flogging headsail, no boom banging into stays and no mainsail bending around the stays. Stayed rigs are great if you like your sailing to be high stress and high maintenance. If you don't, then unstayed makes a lot more sense.
rob denney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2022, 01:21   #14
Registered User
 
Franziska's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Panschwitz, Germany
Boat: Woods Mira 35 Catamaran
Posts: 3,103
Re: Anti-Capsize Technology and Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by rob denney View Post
Relying on electronics to prevent a capsize is a high maintenenace, regular test exercise. They also require a high degree of kine management so the sheets can run freely if released.

Works on racing multis, and with paid crew, neither of whom need it unless they are shorthanded. Not so much for the weekend warrior.



On the cargo proa prototype Cargo Ferry – Harryproa we are using a near zero cost, near idiot proof system to release the sheets at a predetermined angle of heel or pitch. The release is pretty easy. The tricky bit was ensuring the sheet is dumped even if it is cleated, on a winch or someone is standing on it.



Might be sailing by Xmas, I'll let you know how it works.



The 'zone of death', aka the point of sail between safely luffing or bearing away that Phil describes to prevent capsize is one of those things that need not be. With an unstayed mast, you simply release the sheet. On any point of sail. No flogging headsail, no boom banging into stays and no mainsail bending around the stays. Stayed rigs are great if you like your sailing to be high stress and high maintenance. If you don't, then unstayed makes a lot more sense.
Thanks Rob following your interesting project for some time.
Exciting stuff.

Would be interesting to see your simple system once it's working. Do you think it could be implemented/retrofitted on a typical cruising multi?

Freestanding masts are great. Love the simplicity.
Especially on a mono, tri or proa. On a cat unfortunately less so.

Unfortunately most of us are stuck with what the boat has already. Rerigging for a new type of rig is usually not cost effective...
Franziska is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2022, 01:39   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW
Boat: Chamberlin 11.6 catamaran
Posts: 650
Re: Anti-Capsize Technology and Systems

I think that Sean and Rob are probably onto the easiest way to implement a system - bear the boat away or round it up in an emergency manner under autopilot.

To make things easier you could probably implement into something like a PyPilot a little bit of code that says Mode 1 - "When the wind gets to ____ knots bear away _____ degrees in fastest manner possible" or Mode 2 "When the wind gets to ______ head up ____ degrees in fastest manner possible".

This would obviate the need for sheet releasing systems which are prone to error and challenges in getting them to release. It is also the way I sail my boat if I am challenged by a squall - get the boat heading the correct way first and then sort out the rest. Even a few seconds bearing away or heading up woudl be gold in a nasty squall.

My son is getting closer to installing Pypilot on my catamaran. I could then integrate the wind sensor into the system and see if some code could be written to do the course changes. In fact the boat could be set to sail at a safe angle by apparent angle until told not to.

cheers

Phil
catsketcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
capsize, size

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Newer technology A/C systems TCM1968 Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 68 05-11-2019 09:49
Anti-Capsize Systems. Nicocrispi Multihull Sailboats 18 09-08-2017 04:39
New Anti Foul technology.. boatman61 Construction, Maintenance & Refit 0 11-03-2016 08:02
Anti-Capsize Devices catty Multihull Sailboats 71 10-11-2015 09:31

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:48.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.