Corsair Tri’s - Coastal Cruising and the odd crossing?

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

I'm not going to get in the middle of this FBoat argument, because from other threads I know that you will go on and on and on, sometimes beyond the point of any logic.

But your points there about "slow, heavy, full keel sailboats" being safer in bad weather is now quite old, outdated thinking and information.

The Queen's Birthday Weekend Storm in the Pacific in 1999 was the final nail in the coffin for that type of thinking.

It was the heavy, slow monohulls that got slammed (some of the lighter, faster monohulls were able to avoid the worst). And the lighter (by comparison) multihulls were the ones that survived the best.

Yes they still got a kicking too, because these were very extreme conditions, but they remained upright whereas most of the monohulls were rolled multiple times, lost masts, injured their crew, etc.

Catamaran Ramtha was abandoned only to be recovered later in surprisingly ok condition.

In case you are not familiar with it you can read more about this event here (and more on google):

Multihull Dynamics, Inc. - News Article

https://www.rutgerson.se/discover/qu...irthday-storm/

In fact one of the safest boats in a survival storm at sea is a Wharram - a Catamaran that is lightweight, often home built, and tied together with bits of string (some would say ). In any case it's about as opposite as possible to a "slow, heavy, full keel sailboat".

Here is an amazing shot of the above mentioned Ramtha in 50-70kn and mountainous seas. She probably shouldn't have been abandoned, it was more dangerous to get off than to stay onboard.





And for good measure here's a Wharram in some big seas during normal cruising in the Med. Look at how flat, comfortable, and stable she is. And then just imagine how badly a "slow, heavy, full keel sailboat" would be rolling around in those same conditions.

Love the Wharram vid. They were a real game changer when first introduced and allowed a lot of folks to experience water sailing">blue water sailing. Wharram spend lots of time studying the original 'tied together with string' South Pacific cats that were doing long blue water passages and incorporated those features in his cats.

What the vid shows me is how important surfing is in heavy weather. As a kid I loved surfing and later started windsurfing. I crewed on bigger SORC boats and was sometimes given the helm because of my ability to surf big boats.

This is the big advantage light multihulls have they are much easier to surf than heavy deep draft monohulls. The real danger to slow monohulls in nasty seas like what happened in the Queens' Birthday is when a wave overtakes a monohull they will broach and get sideways to the waves; that is when they roll and lose their mast. Often they don't need to be completely knocked down; the top part of the mast/sail will dip into the crest of a wave and act like a huge weight pulling the boat over, or snapping the mast.

When I was racing one designs as a kid I learned how important it was to surf even in small waves, even if it was only for a short period of time. The boat would often gain a couple of knots of speed sliding down the face of a wave. It was a simple matter to apply this to bigger boats, and in bigger waves, since I had been surfing for years.

There is no doubt light shallow draft wide boats (like multihulls) are much easier to surf than heavy deep draft narrow boats (like monohulls) are much easier to surf; and less likely to broach and get sideways to the waves.

[jmh2002]

Yes you have noted a lot of good points there too @tomfl

Another point about the Wharrams which is often overlooked, or more so actually treated as a negative is the canoe stern design.

Normally I'm not a fan of this on monohulls, but in the case of the Wharram which was optimised for cruising and hence more downwind sailing, it reduces the initial buoyancy in the stern with following seas, reducing the tendency for the stern to be pushed around as often happens with a monohull, and combined with the v shaped hulls promotes good tracking and steering, especially under autopilot or windvane.

The normally poor stern access that this design creates on a monohull is avoided in a catamaran, and especially in a Wharram with their typical huge drop down swim platforms.



PS: if you liked the Wharram Pahi 63 vid there are more on that boat's channel here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_t...VWHmZLlQumBoug and some of the Pahi 52/53 in the above photo here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVa...wJ8liwrNsqsufQ

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

No it doesn’t, and you don’t have a clue. You really should get some experience sailing instead of putting out your opinions about things you know nothing. Oh, that’s right, you raced beach cats so you know all there is about sailing. Please take your ego elsewhere.

I'm sorry you cannot handle being disagreed with.

Maybe when you get some experience on the water in rough conditions when you are very tired, you will get the point.

If you cannot deal with the truth, I guess you can keep attacking the guy that explains it too you.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

I'm not going to get in the middle of this FBoat argument, because from other threads I know that you will go on and on and on, sometimes beyond the point of any logic.

But your points there about "slow, heavy, full keel sailboats" being safer in bad weather is now quite old, outdated thinking and information.

The Queen's Birthday Weekend Storm in the Pacific in 1999 was the final nail in the coffin for that type of thinking.

It was the heavy, slow monohulls that got slammed (some of the lighter, faster monohulls were able to avoid the worst). And the lighter (by comparison) multihulls were the ones that survived the best.

Yes they still got a kicking too, because these were very extreme conditions, but they remained upright whereas most of the monohulls were rolled multiple times, lost masts, injured their crew, etc.

Catamaran Ramtha was abandoned only to be recovered later in surprisingly ok condition.

In case you are not familiar with it you can read more about this event here (and more on google):

Multihull Dynamics, Inc. - News Article

https://www.rutgerson.se/discover/qu...irthday-storm/

In fact one of the safest boats in a survival storm at sea is a Wharram - a Catamaran that is lightweight, often home built, and tied together with bits of string (some would say ). In any case it's about as opposite as possible to a "slow, heavy, full keel sailboat".

Here is an amazing shot of the above mentioned Ramtha in 50-70kn and mountainous seas. She probably shouldn't have been abandoned, it was more dangerous to get off than to stay onboard.





And for good measure here's a Wharram in some big seas during normal cruising in the Med. Look at how flat, comfortable, and stable she is. And then just imagine how badly a "slow, heavy, full keel sailboat" would be rolling around in those same conditions.

This thread is about whether or not it is a good idea to cross an ocean on an Fboat such as the 31 Corsair which weighs a little over 4,000 lbs.

So you bring evidence it can with an 18,000 lb 41' Catalac Catamaran. (dry weight) 36' LWL

And this applies how?

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Do the math if you can.

The boats are too light and have no ballast down low.

They are too fragile for the ocean except on very short crossings in good weather.

You can disagree and complain all you want.

I just hope you aren't convincing anyone with little experience that sailing an Fboat across an ocean is a good idea

How are you able to keep ignoring the FACT that a C28 circumnavigated and sailed past Cape Horn in the Southern Ocean and too many Fboats to mention have crossed the Pacific and Atlantic.

[smj]

Originally Posted by thomm225

This thread is about whether or not it is a good idea to cross an ocean on an Fboat such as the 31 Corsair which weighs a little over 4,000 lbs.

So you bring evidence it can with an 18,000 lb 41' Catalac Catamaran. (dry weight) 36' LWL

And this applies how?

The boat he mentioned wasn’t a Catalac 41 it was a 10,000 lb Simpson 38.

[thomm225]

Your choice offshore.

Old, slow, heavy full keel or fast 4,000 lb Fboat.

Several of the crew are injured here, but the boat as been setup to deal with the conditions on it's own

Your choice for which is best offshore or for ocean crossings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKusg6Jyc9Y

More detail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV0TbR5YAYQ

[smj]

As I said before, to me it would be a no brainer I’d go with the F boat. I have no desire whatsoever to sail on any heavy full keeled boat offshore. Your opinion may differ.

[thomm225]

Ocean Chess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJMIBbt2svo

[Training Wheels]

Originally Posted by smj

As I said before, to me it would be a no brainer I’d go with the F boat. I have no desire whatsoever to sail on any heavy full keeled boat offshore. Your opinion may differ.

^^^ What he said!

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by thomm225

SNIP]

So when will you answer my question.

There have been multiple posts about fboats crossing oceans and circumnavigating including rounding Cape Horn in the Southern Ocean.

Why do you keep ignoring these facts?

[Sailing Savana]

Would you guys be able to agree on what ratio of blue water sailors, currently utilize monohull vs. FBoats / trimarans?

To take the personal views out of the discussion, I think that could bring a ratio as 'evidence' where the 'global bluewater sailor comfort ratio' is...

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Sailing Savana

Would you guys be able to agree on what ratio of blue water sailors, currently utilize monohull vs. FBoats / trimarans?

To take the personal views out of the discussion, I think that could bring a ratio as 'evidence' where the 'global bluewater sailor comfort ratio' is...

Not sure that that would be relevant. More people buy an F150 than any other vehicle in the world, doesn't make it the best vehcile on the market.

[Sailing Savana]

Im not referring to the global sales as such, but more to the number of bluewater boats that are crossing the oceans?

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by Sailing Savana

Im not referring to the global sales as such, but more to the number of bluewater boats that are crossing the oceans?

Would agree there are more cheap boats than expensive boats