Catamarans in 50kt winds

[dirkdig]

After reading all these scenarios, its time to save my family from impending death and sell out cat asap.
Just in case.


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[SV DestinyAscen]

In all seriousness - most rescues don't involve imminently sinking boats, but severely damaged rigging/loss of electrical and bilge pumping capabilities, and most importantly - severe injuries to the fatigued crew. During the Fastnet disaster, the 30ft Grimalkin was rolled multiple times, the boat became unsailable - the skipper/owner suffered severe head injuries and during a knockdown - he was lost when another crew member had to cut his lifeline in an attempt to prevent the unconscious man from drowning. Yes the Grimalkin survived and continues on with new owners - but 3 members of the crew abandoned (leaving 1 unconscious aboard and another dying man).

The way people are talking here, you'll think being rolled around inside a monohull is just like a day in the park with bubble wrap. It completely ignores the initial stability benefits, but focuses on the decline of stability after roughly 50 degrees heel (despite the cat's benefit of probably 2-3x initial stability during most normal sea states). I'd compare it to focusing on the idea that your 1960 steel box car with no airbags/seatbelt can survive a 40mph collision with minor issues with the frame, but the driver would be dead.

I don't even own a cat - but my mate (in the process of buying one) should probably get a cat w/ 9 lives and keep it aboard eh? I've never encountered the severe conditions described in multiple posts above in a cat - but when my mate takes delivery, I'm sure we'll practice with some sort of jordan series drogue, hook it on a bridle and toss it off - let me know when someone in a cat deploying a jsd had a disaster and we'll then toss the jsd out and never sail a cat again. We can keep doing this exercise of citing inherent dangers and how it is unacceptable until the absurd consensus is no one should be near the ocean except for an arctic exploring ice breaker with nuclear power...

(I'm also open to giving up eating solid food if someone would direct me to solid food choking incident )

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by dirkdig

After reading all these scenarios, its time to save my family from impending death and sell out cat asap.
Just in case.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

Probably best to read through the thread again......I'm just not seeing what your seeing. Overall seems like a healthy discussion.

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[Juho]

When thinking about catamarans and monohulls in rough weather my fears are roughly as follows.

- Catamarans have the risk of flipping over if they have too much canvas up. You need to watch the wind and possible gusts more carefully than in monos. You need to reef and reduce sails early to be on the safe side all the time. Monohulls are more forgiving in the sense that they will heel and thereby warn you. And they are likely to bounce back even after a 90° heel / slam down.

- Catamarans will not roll as much. This makes them more comfortable and as a result also safer (less crew fatigue). On the other hand, with the price of a catamaran, you can maybe buy a long (more stable) monohull. And it depends on your personal preferences which kind of movements you do and don't like.

- Monohulls may sink easier because of the ballast. But you can fight this by keeping the hull watertight, and by carrying a life raft. (And of course the ballast helps in keeping the boat upside up.)

- In high latitudes people tend to use monohulls. This is partly because of the rough weather, but also because it is simply easier to keep the monohulls warm.

- Rolling over because of the breaking waves is a situation that you don't want to experience in either category of boats. I recommend investing e.g. Jordan series drogue or other corresponding gear and deploy them before there is a major risk of rolling over.

[barnakiel]

Yes, Juho,

I was just about to write this. You saved me plenty of typing!

Cheers,
b.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

It is storm. You have to hand steer. Therefore you have to be in cockpit. You have to have all openings closed as boat is washed by every wave.

Boat turned 180 deg or so by a 5m roller. So... what is the course of action ? Rob redford had to swim behind the boat and hold air for 3 minutes and is was bright. and just as he is secured back, boat turned around perfect timing.

How much chance you have to come out alive ?

Actually in a big storm you would have a series drogue out and you'd be secured in your bunk below.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Actually in a big storm you would have a series drogue out and you'd be secured in your bunk below.

ok, that is what i was expecting. Although hoping there is better answer.

mast/rigging integrity and mast-keel bonding becomes of critical importance as one should be prepared for multiple rolls in confused seas. Number of expected rolls decreasing by width of the boat.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by SV DestinyAscen

(I'm also open to giving up eating solid food if someone would direct me to solid food choking incident )

Inventor of Heimlich maneuver finally gets to use in in real life:

Henry Heimlich uses Heimlich maneuver for first time to save choking woman - CNN.com

Guess you should stick with a "liquid lunch" from now on.

[Seaslug Caravan]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Actually in a big storm you would have a series drogue out and you'd be secured in your bunk below.

....praying that the large glass patio (cockpit) doors don't take a direct hit.

[Juho]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

ok, that is what i was expecting. Although hoping there is better answer.

mast/rigging integrity and mast-keel bonding becomes of critical importance as one should be prepared for multiple rolls in confused seas. Number of expected rolls decreasing by width of the boat.

Another answer would be to get a pilothouse boat with a steering wheel inside.

But I agree that if there is a serious risk of roll, a series drogue (or something similar) should be deployed. Voluntary rolling is not recommended for any boat in any circumstances.

[Jim Cate]

Without wanting to stir the pot excessively, we've heard of several cats being flipped on their moorings with no sail up and in flat water. One specific incident was in Little Oyster cove (off Kettering) in Tasmania. A couple of years ago there was a sudden and fierce storm which lead to the loss of several boats, and t he near loss of a brand new >million dollar 8 meter classic yacht (written up in Afloat). During that storm, which had gusts around 80 knots according to folks who sat through it, a ~35-40 ft catamaran on a mooring was flipped. It then proceeded to drag its mooring through the anchorage, damaging a couple of boats on the way. Bad joss for sure! There were no big seas involved, for it is a well protected anchorage with little fetch, yet there it was, inverted. If it can happen under these conditions, could it not also happen at sea to a vessel with bare poles?

FWIW, there were several monohulls damaged at their moorings, but none actually knocked down as far as I heard. The tin roof was ripped from a shed on shore... flew through the air and dismasted a moored boat (timber mast, just launched after a refit) and then nearly sliced an automobile in half. Not a nice day on the water!

Please don't take this as cat-bashing! This was a well documented incident, and I'm trying to relate it to the realities of multihull sailing as discussed in this thread.

Jim

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Without wanting to stir the pot excessively, we've heard of several cats being flipped on their moorings with no sail up and in flat water. One specific incident was in Little Oyster cove (off Kettering) in Tasmania. A couple of years ago there was a sudden and fierce storm which lead to the loss of several boats, and t he near loss of a brand new >million dollar 8 meter classic yacht (written up in Afloat). During that storm, which had gusts around 80 knots according to folks who sat through it, a ~35-40 ft catamaran on a mooring was flipped. It then proceeded to drag its mooring through the anchorage, damaging a couple of boats on the way. Bad joss for sure! There were no big seas involved, for it is a well protected anchorage with little fetch, yet there it was, inverted. If it can happen under these conditions, could it not also happen at sea to a vessel with bare poles?

FWIW, there were several monohulls damaged at their moorings, but none actually knocked down as far as I heard. The tin roof was ripped from a shed on shore... flew through the air and dismasted a moored boat (timber mast, just launched after a refit) and then nearly sliced an automobile in half. Not a nice day on the water!

Please don't take this as cat-bashing! This was a well documented incident, and I'm trying to relate it to the realities of multihull sailing as discussed in this thread.

Jim

I have seen and heard that as well. French cats but was in 150kn range.

80 kn seem a bit too easy and my have been one of these very light ones.

I have been up to 60 kn in flat water and my wife has not even noticed. So, I bet it was not lagoon flipping in 80 kn.

One of bad sides of very light cats. But then ma ynot be too hrd to right them as well.

[Bulawayo]

I have never felt the need on any cat for an expected roll. Where did this come from? If I expected to roll I would not even bother sailing. We have side slipped down waves before as have others - not a nice feeling but we never felt like we were about to lift a hull, less alone anything worse.
What mast- keel bonding are you referring to? On a cat? Do you mean in the event of a lightning strike? That is a whole new ball game to the subject matter. Anyone sailing should ensure the integrity of their rigging.
Similarly, I doubt many mono-hull owners would go to sea expecting to sink, lose their mast or for the keel to fall off. These might happen but it is rare. Perhaps it was just a mis-phrase?
However, I think it is apparent from those that sail their cats offshore that we have confidence in our boats - even more so those with the appropriate gear on board - like a JSD. It should be appreciated that everything has a risk element associated - that is life. It is how we manage the risk that makes the differance. For me its a JSD, a storm jib (very rarely used) and a third reef for the main (even rarer to tie in). No, I dont go to my bunk - I choose to throw a pile of cushions onto the saloon floor and crash there so I am on immediate hand whilst my wife is taking a watch. The term on watch is a bit laughable as you cant see anything much in such conditions......... and if you could you are unlikely to be able to take meaningful action, and even less if streaming a drogue or parachute without resorting to a knife.

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

ok, that is what i was expecting. Although hoping there is better answer.

mast/rigging integrity and mast-keel bonding becomes of critical importance as one should be prepared for multiple rolls in confused seas. Number of expected rolls decreasing by width of the boat.

[Bulawayo]

Its off subject but I could not bring myself to watch his daft antics - did he survive? I suppose he must off as he is still around.............

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Just ask Robert Redford. They are extremely vicious on dead calm days... and come out of nowhere.

[Bulawayo]

Do we know what sort of cat? Two tubes with a bit of a kite like trampoline or a fledged ocean cruiser? Its sometimes like talking about racing mono's loosing their bolt on super winged keels . Its not representative of a cruising mono.

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Without wanting to stir the pot excessively, we've heard of several cats being flipped on their moorings with no sail up and in flat water. One specific incident was in Little Oyster cove (off Kettering) in Tasmania. A couple of years ago there was a sudden and fierce storm which lead to the loss of several boats, and t he near loss of a brand new >million dollar 8 meter classic yacht (written up in Afloat). During that storm, which had gusts around 80 knots according to folks who sat through it, a ~35-40 ft catamaran on a mooring was flipped. It then proceeded to drag its mooring through the anchorage, damaging a couple of boats on the way. Bad joss for sure! There were no big seas involved, for it is a well protected anchorage with little fetch, yet there it was, inverted. If it can happen under these conditions, could it not also happen at sea to a vessel with bare poles?

FWIW, there were several monohulls damaged at their moorings, but none actually knocked down as far as I heard. The tin roof was ripped from a shed on shore... flew through the air and dismasted a moored boat (timber mast, just launched after a refit) and then nearly sliced an automobile in half. Not a nice day on the water!

Please don't take this as cat-bashing! This was a well documented incident, and I'm trying to relate it to the realities of multihull sailing as discussed in this thread.

Jim