Catamarans - Current Market Situation

[ausaviator]

Toyota sacked 350 workers today due to the high Australian dollar...

[Dragon Lady]

yeap that's only the start.

[D&D]

Originally Posted by Palarran

The simple fact to me is that not that many people are going to spend $500k to $1m on a depreciating asset that is very expensive to maintain when they can get some pretty kick ass beach front property for about 1/2 price instead.

Not meaning to nit-pick here, but "fact" may be a bit of a stretch. There are probably plenty of boat owners/buyers who already own "kick ass beach/water front property". In any event and in fact (!) there are still plenty of boats turning over in the $500K-$1M range, although most observers would probably express the opinion (!!) that it's a buyers' market.

Given the global mobility of (especially larger, cruising) vessels, the vessel market is inevitably a global market. Australians seem doubly blessed at the moment with both a relatively strong economy and a definitely strong currency...and Europeans seem doubly cursed on the reverse in both the same areas . So vessel prices are holding up relatively well (albeit still a buyers' market) in OZ, and relatively poorly in Europe...and we might suggest (observing from a great distance) that much the same might be said about the respective property markets...?

[Palarran]

D&D, that's why I posted "simple fact TO ME". I really don't get the rest of your post and it's point. It is a buyers market, the price of boats continue to fall all around the world, and it probably won't change in the near future.

[D&D]

Originally Posted by Palarran

that's why I posted "simple fact TO ME".

Fair enough. We were perhaps putting too much emphasis on 'fact' being non-subjective and the same for everyone. No offense was intended, by the way.

Originally Posted by Palarran

I really don't get the rest of your post and it's point.

We probably agree on the state of the market. How about we leave it at that?

[Dragon Lady]

Just thought I'd fire this tread up again.
It looks like the Aussie boat market is seeing some significant price drops now.
The O/S market looks to be still at the level of stagnation it has been at for the last few years.
I even read in Afloat magazine that quote boats often sell for 60% of the asking price which I think is a bit inaccurate.
Still it looks like Australia is catching up with the rest of the world.
I also had to laugh at the local Fountaine Pajot agent who told me my 40 foot cat was a grey import because I brought it here myself.
Anyway what's the opinion out there?

[ausaviator]

There is what looks to be a paid "advertorial" in the latest Australian Multihull magazine that looks to be written by Multihull Solutions. It warns people about trying to import themselves and the hidden costs associated with grey importing. Sounds like business is slow and they are trying to get people to buy off them (fair enough really), however I don't think the import process is as bad as they make out and there are a lot of bargains out there to be had.

I noted a US$180k Athena recently sold in the US that looked impressive. I'd hate to think what MH solutions would charge for that second hand in Australia.

[Mr B]

What exactly is a grey import.

I hear this a lot, Could you give me a brief explanation Please.

Thanks,
Brian,

[ausaviator]

Grey import is a term used in many industries.

Wiki has this as the description:

"Grey import vehicles are new or used motor vehicles and motorcycles legally imported from another country through channels other than the maker's official distribution system."

In the terms of Dragon's Lavezzi. It was purchased legally second hand from overseas, not through the Australian importer, thus it's grey.

This would normally only be an issue if it was still within the warranty period because as the grey importer of the product you would probably assume that you could obtain support through the Australian agent, but this is likely not the case.

If you purchased a Garmin GPS new from overseas into Australia, it would be considered a grey import and warranty support would not be avaialble for it.

Apple on the other hand don't care where you buy the product as it's a more global company in terms of support.

[Dragon Lady]

Grey import usually refers to a car that has been imported by someone other than the official agent.
The implication is that there is no support for warranty or spares.

There is often a marketing statement that claims the product has been "specially tuned for Australian conditions".

To be fair to MHS they don't make these claims and have been very helpful with supplying spares albeit at a price.
They have also lobbied FP on my behalf for a warranty claim which was rejected by FP.

To be fair to them they have to make a profit and people like me are doing them no favors by importing out own boats.

On my side if I hadn't done the import myself I would be able to afford it.

I'll have to read the article it should be good for a laugh.

[D&D]

Originally Posted by Mr B

What exactly is a grey import.

I hear this a lot, Could you give me a brief explanation Please.

Thanks,
Brian,

We'd like to hear the explanation/definition too Brian!

That item in Australian Multihull was painfully self-serving, although not at all surprising. As ausaviator posted, it's fair enough for the local brokers to promote themselves and some provide excellent services indeed, but that piece bordered on misleading, especially for what it did NOT say, viz. the potential savings available to compensate for the effort(s) required. It's also not surprising because the article's author is also known to 'sell' with cheap (and borderline misleading) shots at competitors, although we should add that is certainly not the case with everyone at that particular brokerage. Ah well, even us importers may need our local brokers when it comes time to sell.

So Dragon Lady, how's the 'new' boat? Are you enjoying her plenty? Any cruising plans in the immediate future? We'll be heading your way shortly for our winter exhibition cruise such that we might meet up somewhere...?

[Dragon Lady]

Originally Posted by ausaviator

Grey import is a term used in many industries.

In the terms of Dragon's Lavezzi. It was purchased legally second hand from overseas, not through the Australian importer, thus it's grey.

.

Thanks Aussie A,

A couple of points though;

the vessel is capable of going all around the globe under it's own means and is produced for a world market. Shore power aside there is no location specific models.

FP does not transfer warranties between owners so a second hand boat has no warranty regardless where it is sold and by whom.
If you buy the boat new in France or Australia it has the same warranty (I believe).

So I really don't believe the grey tag applies to my vessel, but that's just my opinion.

Anyway many people are now doing what I did and good luck to them.

Unfortunately MHS will lose out in sales commissions but will make heaps in spare parts sales if they are smart.
Because like most Euro products they have a lot of bits that wear out and need replacing

[Dragon Lady]

Originally Posted by D&D

We'd like to hear the explanation/definition too Brian!

That item in Australian Multihull was painfully self-serving, although not at all surprising. As ausaviator posted, it's fair enough for the local brokers to promote themselves and some provide excellent services indeed, but that piece bordered on misleading, especially for what it did NOT say, viz. the potential savings available to compensate for the effort(s) required. It's also not surprising because the article's author is also known to 'sell' with cheap (and borderline misleading) shots at competitors, although we should add that is certainly not the case with everyone at that particular brokerage. Ah well, even us importers may need our local brokers when it comes time to sell.

So Dragon Lady, how's the 'new' boat? Are you enjoying her plenty? Any cruising plans in the immediate future? We'll be heading your way shortly for our winter exhibition cruise such that we might meet up somewhere...?

Hi Ds

Sounds like a plan, let me know when you are in Pittwater.

Yes I have heard comments similar to yours but so far I have only dealt with nice people at MHS.

No doubt they will happily list a "grey" on their books but not advertise it as such.LOL

[Morrissey]

I wouldn't regard DL's Lavezzi as grey - or any ocean-going boat. And Multihull Solutions are OK, at least at Head Office - they offered to assist me with an overseas purchase using their trust a/c for the funds and inter-broker, or settlement agent, completion. I knew the broker I bought through so didn't take up the offer. But there have been people lose funds in transactions, so bear it in mind. Also, MHS can arrange for you new boat to collected at the factory and sailed back yourself if you want to do it that way. Yes they have to make a dollar, but they are pragmatic and establishing a relationship with them is a sensible thing to do if you are buying one of their brands. And they only list less than half of the boats people ask them to sell - because owner expectations are more often than not completely unrealistic. And no, they are not buddies and I dont work for them or have any business relationship with them.

I think JN Taylor at least have been able to lobby Furuno on their pricing policy. Some electronics I've been looking at will be more expensive to buy in USA and then pay the GST+duty on them when importing the boat. That the best way to deal with grey imports - correct the local pricing. The exception seems to be autopliots - seems to be a price war going on in the PNW at least regarding those things. Much cheaper Simrad systems in USA vs Australia.

[D&D]

Originally Posted by Dragon Lady

FP does not transfer warranties between owners so a second hand boat has no warranty regardless where it is sold and by whom.

Interesting.

Offcially, we were assured that Lagoon will transfer warranties between owners. In practice, however, the transferred warranty may not be worth much.

In our case there was a clear warranty transfer agreed initially and even a replacement part (deck wash pump) provided under that warranty, but thereafter it became a warranty with no real substance, or perhaps more acccurately no backup. We were never sure whether the lack of response to some serious warranty issues (including faulty equipment, critical electrical faults and a leak into the inboard panels of one of the aft cabins) was due to resistance by Lagoon themselves -- It seems Lagoon will never correspond directly with a Lagoon owner -- or by the selling broker (in UK) or the local broker here in OZ, but in any event for us it meant virtually no support.

The brokers offered helpful noises, but little of substance. The selling broker assured us repeatedly of the warranty transfer and promised we would be supported when we arrived in OZ...and then after many months when we were making no progress in OZ, they offered to step in again to help, but that offer is now ~5 months passed with still no further progress whatsoever. The OZ broker seemed reluctant (understandably perhaps) but then did supply some replacement lights, but all the major issues remain unresolved (in the case of the leak) or with no compensation offered.

So perhaps our experience would suggest one should not expect any warranty support for a 'grey' Lagoon. Given FP's policy, that may even be reasonable, but that it is absolutely NOT what we were told initially...and we are reserving our rights in the matter.