Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

Depends, if you’re a person claiming your family van is as fast or faster than a Porsche or Ferrari, maybe you’d want to participate in a friendly “race” to prove it?

so you saying performance cats cant make 3 kn VMG against wind in 10 kn true ?

I thought VMG for such boats would hover around 4 - 5 kn VMG?

hope tp12 will not get angry at me again because i may have said something wrong

[tp12]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

so you saying performance cats cant make 3 kn VMG against wind in 10 kn true ?

I thought VMG for such boats would hover around 4 - 5 kn VMG?

hope tp12 will not get angry at me again because i may have said something wrong

A) I didn't get angry at you
B) You're not a victim here
C) If you genuinely believe what you're saying and you're not trolling have a friendly race with Alan.

I'm sure that between the people on this forum we can arrange that and you can prove what a gun sailor you are in front of all of us and we'll have to eat humble pie.

You know what humble means, right?

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by tp12

A) I didn't get angry at you
B) You're not a victim here
C) If you genuinely believe what you're saying and you're not trolling have a friendly race with Alan.

I'm sure that between the people on this forum we can arrange that and you can prove what a gun sailor you are in front of all of us and we'll have to eat humble pie.

You know what humble means, right?

I do not know what is so spectacular about performance i mentioned.

6+ kn VMG I will not repeat any more as do not want to stress the boat and is purely academic (have to sail in 27 app full sail , my reefing should be at 20)

As you and others seem to be intrigued with my 3 kn VMG, and as you such nice people, I will make an video of that or thereabout 3 kn VMG in 10 kn true which translates around 30 app at 4 kn. Will not worry about track as already established leeway is very small, so current wont be an issue.

Regarding racing, will not happen with our boat. See no point either as we all agree Alan's boat is faster.

[smj]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

I do not know what is so spectacular about performance i mentioned.



6+ kn VMG I will not repeat any more as do not want to stress the boat and is purely academic (have to sail in 27 app full sail , my reefing should be at 20)



As you and others seem to be intrigued with my 3 kn VMG, and as you such nice people, I will make an video of that or thereabout 3 kn VMG in 10 kn true which translates around 30 app at 4 kn. Will not worry about track as already established leeway is very small, so current wont be an issue.



Regarding racing, will not happen with our boat. See no point either as we all agree Alan's boat is faster.

Yet you previously state a cruise loaded performance boat has no speed advantage over a charter cat?

[tp12]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

I do not know what is so spectacular about performance i mentioned.

6+ kn VMG I will not repeat any more as do not want to stress the boat and is purely academic (have to sail in 27 app full sail , my reefing should be at 20)

As you and others seem to be intrigued with my 3 kn VMG, and as you such nice people, I will make an video of that or thereabout 3 kn VMG in 10 kn true which translates around 30 app at 4 kn. Will not worry about track as already established leeway is very small, so current wont be an issue.

Regarding racing, will not happen with our boat. See no point either as we all agree Alan's boat is faster.

"I don't want to stress the boat"

Looking forward to seeing a video of the ridiculous claims you've made. And do include the track because that's also nonsense without other supporting information. If you understood the relationship between all this information you wouldn't dismiss it as you have.

You won't race Alan because his boat is faster ... got nothing to do with justifying your claims, of course... the word charlatan comes to mind ... and it's because Alan's boat is faster than you've claimed and yours isn't.

Let's see the video.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by smj

Yet you previously state a cruise loaded performance boat has no speed advantage over a charter cat?

At some useful weight somewhere between 2 to 5 T, I would suspect that to be the case. But that is hard one to measure and determine that point.

Maybe ask VPLP. According to them hulls are optimised to carry lots of weight and not lose much in performance which has been confirmed by many sailors on trans ocean trips.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

Maybe ask VPLP. According to them hulls are optimised to carry lots of weight and not lose much in performance which has been confirmed by many sailors on trans ocean trips.

That's probably mostly true, but needs to be understood in the right context.

ie: "not lose much in performance in relation to the boat's original designed performance expectations"

- so, it's orginally a medium speed boat, and with a cruising payload it's expected to remain a medium speed boat. Nothing wrong with that. That's good.

But that's quite separate and different to being a fast boat, or being competitive with a fast boat, even in a cruising sense.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

That's probably mostly true, but needs to be understood in the right context.

ie: "not lose much in performance in relation to the boat's original designed performance expectations"

- so, it's orginally a medium speed boat, and with a cruising payload it's expected to remain a medium speed boat. Nothing wrong with that. That's good.

But that's quite separate and different to being a fast boat, or being competitive with a fast boat, even in a cruising sense.

yeah, that is how i see it. I like to play sails etc and learnt couple tricks re trimming. And we relatively light (for our boat) at recommended total weight around 12 T.

So starting with 2 boats with 20% performance difference when light loaded, i could imagine real time performance getting close to equal if faster boat had inexperienced mariner and overloaded to some point which is the case at the start of longer passages and quite common lately as cats are so popular with new first time cat owners. Some do not put in any effort to improve trimming skills.

We overtook lavezzi 40 for more than 1/2 day for exact reasons mentioned above although lavezzi is bit faster when both boats lightly loaded.


Now if I had the other faster boat , then I would probably upset other group of much faster boats

And as it looks like we can live with reasonably low load, that is important when one wants to keep real performance, i think for us makes sense to upgrade to faster boat and I am actually looking at that option as well.

[smj]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

yeah, that is how i see it. I like to play sails etc and learnt couple tricks re trimming. And we relatively light (for our boat) at recommended total weight around 12 T.



So starting with 2 boats with 20% performance difference when light loaded, i could imagine real time performance getting close to equal if faster boat had inexperienced mariner and overloaded to some point which is the case at the start of longer passages and quite common lately as cats are so popular with new first time cat owners. Some do not put in any effort to improve trimming skills.



We overtook lavezzi 40 for more than 1/2 day for exact reasons mentioned above although lavezzi is bit faster when both boats lightly loaded.





Now if I had the other faster boat , then I would probably upset other group of much faster boats



And as it looks like we can live with reasonably low load, that is important when one wants to keep real performance, i think for us makes sense to upgrade to faster boat and I am actually looking at that option as well.

I think you would thoroughly enjoy a performance boat.

[CatNewBee]

In stormy conditions you have to slow down the boat, even with bare poles you must use rope loops at stern to not get too fast according to the user manual of our slow cats.

Well, a fast performance cat must reef and use breaks earlier to not capsize or wreck, as it would accelerate even faster. They are nice, but in bad condititions also more dangerous.

I am still not convinced, that a performance cat would be safer or any better for bluewater cruising.

I agree, they are great for the race track and for a fun weekend regatta to collect some trophies.

[JustMurph]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

In stormy conditions you have to slow down the boat, even with bare poles you must use rope loops at stern to not get too fast according to the user manual of our slow cats.

Well, a fast performance cat must reef and use breaks earlier to not capsize or wreck, as it would accelerate even faster. They are nice, but in bad condititions also more dangerous.

I am still not convinced, that a performance cat would be safer or any better for bluewater cruising.

I agree, they are great for the race track and for a fun weekend regatta to collect some trophies.

I reckon you need to spend some time on one and you might change your mind.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

I am still not convinced, that a performance cat would be safer or any better for bluewater cruising.

You may be right in some instances, but I think that will very much depend on the individual boats being compared, and the main objectives of the crew.

From a cruising perspective probably the biggest advantage to a lighter performance cat is not it's outright speed/performance, but it's ability to sail in light air when many other boats will need to motor.

But certainly a balance should be found between sailing ability, payload capacity, comfort, safety, ease of handling, overall cost, etc, etc.

[JustMurph]

Out of interest, here on the east coast of Queensland we’ve had some pretty stiff easterlies the last few weeks, with 20-35knots and 3m seas. Most of the boats cruising up the coast up are holed up in the various creeks and anchorages waiting for it to die down. Meanwhile, one of the Mumby owners has been sailing his new boat SOUTH and so far made it the ~300nm from Cairns down to Airlie in 3 days worth of day sails. Let me see a condomaran do that!

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

In stormy conditions you have to slow down the boat, even with bare poles you must use rope loops at stern to not get too fast according to the user manual of our slow cats.

Well, a fast performance cat must reef and use breaks earlier to not capsize or wreck, as it would accelerate even faster. They are nice, but in bad condititions also more dangerous.

I am still not convinced, that a performance cat would be safer or any better for bluewater cruising.

I agree, they are great for the race track and for a fun weekend regatta to collect some trophies.

Of course, nothing would ever convince you. Even the fact that when we returned from Vanuatu to Australia we got in a day before the weather deteriorated, and a Lagoon got caught in the 35 knot change and started to come apart along its hull/deck join. The crew were actually in the process of abandoning ship, a rescue helicopter was orbiting, but when they lost their dinghy trying to launch it ( the rescue helicopter wouldn't winch them off the deck) they decided to gybe, protecting their port quarter, and sail to Lady Musgrave island and shelter there.

You also don't seem to be able to distinguish between performance CRUISING boats and outright race boats.

A performance boat might reef earlier than you, but that's just because it has more light wind sailing options.

In heavy weather with sails down there's little difference. You'd have more drag, but also MUCH more windage.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

You also don't seem to be able to distinguish between performance CRUISING boats and outright race boats.

This should certainly be noted and understood. I don't think much comfort is lost between your Oram 44c, JustMurph's Mumby 48, or similar, and a Lagoon 400 in everday practical terms.

The biggest difference in perceived comfort that I can think of would be the feeling of extra space and openness down below on the Lagoon, given that the hulls themselves are much wider, and they have those huge open bulkhead walk throughs.

To be fair that may be a huge factor for some, especially less 'sailor' type owners or partners. But as we know there is a trade off for that.

But it's not like the average performance cruising cat is at Crowther Super Shockwave levels of spartan... Not even close.

They are still large comfortable cruising boats, especially if coming from an equivalent sized monohull.

But, if downsizing from the average american sized home on land, well that might be different.