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Captain Bill · 11-12-2008, 15:15

I think most people have a problem getting past the shape of the Endeavourcats. I certainly did. They just don't look like they would sail well. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they are the greatest sailing cats out there, but they can't be beat for liveaboard comfort. As for sailing I still sail faster and occasionally outpoint monohulls of similar size. I've even gone faster than some cats on occasion.

Therapy · 11-12-2008, 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

I think most people have a problem getting past the shape of the Endeavourcats. I certainly did. They just don't look like they would sail well. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they are the greatest sailing cats out there, but they can't be beat for liveaboard comfort. As for sailing I still sail faster and occasionally outpoint monohulls of similar size. I've even gone faster than some cats on occasion.

Great to hear.
Personally, I prefer function over form. I could easily get past the "boxy look" if it sails well. If it looked like a turd, sailed 7/8ths of wind speed up to 20 knots and had head room and similar sized bunks etc inside, it would be the boat for me. As long as it did not smell the same way.

It seems to me that much of the attributes were taken into account with the forming of the Manta.

cat man do · 11-12-2008, 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Therapy

Great to hear.
Personally, I prefer function over form. I could easily get past the "boxy look" if it sails well. If it looked like a turd, sailed 7/8ths of wind speed up to 20 knots and had head room and similar sized bunks etc inside, it would be the boat for me. .

I'd have one as well, but, something tells me this is not the case

Dave

Captain Bill · 11-12-2008, 19:54

Therapy, It is interesting that you mentioned Manta because Endeavour built the Manta for a number of years. If you look at the equipment on both boats you'ld see a lot of things in common. Before I bought the Endeavorcat I was looking at Mantas. I do believe that Manta's probably have a higher top speed that the Endeavours, though in talking to Manta owners they probably have similar average speeds. 7/8s the speed of the wind up to 20 knots is a pretty tall order for a cruising boat. I'm assuming that your talking true wind and would be impressed by any boat that could do this. I am aware that some cats in light wind will sail faster than the true wind on certain points of sail with a spinnaker. I can't tell you yet if that's the case for an Endeavour since I don't own a spinnaker yet. I've noted that Broadblue cats seem to be mentioned pretty favorably when it comes to sailing qualities. While I have not done a head to head comparison on all points of sail, I have passed a Broadblue on a broad reach in 20 knots of wind and 5 foot seas. The BB put up a spinnaker for a few minutes before thinking better of it and passed us. As soon as they took it down and went back to main and jib we passed them again. We were making about 9.5 knots and probably were doing about a knot faster than they were. I didn't think that was too bad for a floating condominium.

Tropic Cat · 12-12-2008, 05:17

YOu won't be cruising in any boat which performs like that.

Southern Star · 12-12-2008, 05:51

Therapy, unless we are talking about Gunboats or the like, I agree - 7/8ths of wind speed to 20 knots is just not in the cards for any typical cruising multihull. And if accurate (and typical), 9.5 knots in 20 knots of wind is pretty impressive for a boat of that size. I do note, however, that he was likely being aided by the '5 foot seas': at one point the Broadblue he was racing hoisted its spinnaker).

I seem to recall a test some years ago in Cruising World where an Endeavour 34 was compared to a PDQ 32 amd a Gemini; the best (and fastest) sailer was the PDQ, followed by the Gemini - the Endeavour took up the rear. Having said that, the testers did comment that they were pleasantly surprised by the performance of the Endeavour in view of its appearance and etremely spacious accomodations.

It seems that the Endeavour is a cat that was designed to emphasize comfort/accomodation over performance, but that nevertheless was a reasonably capable sailboat for coastal cruising.

Brad

Therapy · 12-12-2008, 06:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

Therapy, It is interesting that you mentioned Manta because Endeavour built the Manta for a number of years. If you look at the equipment on both boats you'ld see a lot of things in common. Before I bought the Endeavorcat I was looking at Mantas. I do believe that Manta's probably have a higher top speed that the Endeavours, though in talking to Manta owners they probably have similar average speeds. 7/8s the speed of the wind up to 20 knots is a pretty tall order for a cruising boat. I'm assuming that your talking true wind and would be impressed by any boat that could do this. I am aware that some cats in light wind will sail faster than the true wind on certain points of sail with a spinnaker. I can't tell you yet if that's the case for an Endeavour since I don't own a spinnaker yet. I've noted that Broadblue cats seem to be mentioned pretty favorably when it comes to sailing qualities. While I have not done a head to head comparison on all points of sail, I have passed a Broadblue on a broad reach in 20 knots of wind and 5 foot seas. The BB put up a spinnaker for a few minutes before thinking better of it and passed us. As soon as they took it down and went back to main and jib we passed them again. We were making about 9.5 knots and probably were doing about a knot faster than they were. I didn't think that was too bad for a floating condominium.

I thought I had heard that. It does seem apparent.

And to all - I forgot to put in a smiley face. I have read enough of the cost/speed/comfort triangle to have a fair grip on it. I was only presenting a little of my personality. I have had a few vehicles that were not very appealing to the eye but all systems were "go".....or "stop", as in brakes!

Captain Bill · 12-12-2008, 07:38

Southern Star, thanks for getting my point. It's not that the Endeavourcats are the fastest cruising cats around, but their performance is not that different than other cats without the same level of liveaboard comfort.

As for the help from the 5 foot seas, I actually am hindered more than helped by rough water. In the Neuse in similar wind conditions I will break 10 knots on a broad reach in 20 knots of wind. It does relatively better in lighter winds and smoother water. One time in the Indian River on a broad reach in about 12 knots of wind (no white caps at all) I was doing in the high 7s with occasional bursts to 8.5. I know that so far I have been talking about broad reaches, but she will go to windward fairly well in 20 knots I can get 10 about 50 degrees off the wind. If I force her to 40 she'll drop to about 7 and I can still get 2 or 3 knots under 40. A couple of Months ago on an 8-10 knot day I was able to average about 5 knots about 50 degrees off the wind. Downwind the camberspar jib and the boom brake allow us to do a wing on wing quite easily. She's no speed demon straight down wind, but few boats are. Coming out of Ocrakoke a few months ago heading for Oriental we left just after a couple of 45 foot monohulls ( I know it's not fair to pick on monohulls even with an Endeavourcat). They cleared the channel about 2 miles ahead of us and they were about a mile behind us when we made the turn at Brant Island shoal. We could barely see them when we entered the mouth of the Neuse. Winds were about 20 from dead astern for the first leg and I was able to get 6.5-7.5 knots out of her. I'm told by another owner that a spinnaker definitely improves performance down wind. I know that I'm never going to outrun a high performance cat, but I believe that the performance I have experienced is reasonable considering the amount of comfort I have in a liveaboard situation. Since My wife and I bought the boat for our retirement (won't be in a hurry) I think it will do.

Robertcateran · 14-12-2008, 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tropic Cat

YOu won't be cruising in any boat which performs like that.

If I had a spare couple of hundred thousand I could have bought The Harryproa 'Rare bird' which did just that,
RObert

Tropic Cat · 17-12-2008, 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

One time in the Indian River on a broad reach in about 12 knots of wind (no white caps at all) I was doing in the high 7s with occasional bursts to 8.5. I know that so far I have been talking about broad reaches, but she will go to windward fairly well in 20 knots I can get 10 about 50 degrees off the wind. If I force her to 40 she'll drop to about 7 and I can still get 2 or 3 knots under 40.

I blow by the Endeavour 30 inside of 60 degrees. I think the boxy style causes a penalty going to windward. Off the wind, their longer waterline rules and they are slightly faster in flat water.

In lumpy water it's a different story and I don't believe they could maintain enough speed to keep up with me. No disrepect. I'm referring to the lower bridge deck clearance and smaller sail plan. When the Endeavour 30 hits a wave they stall. Under power the outboard prop is out of the water much of the time.

On the other hand, the folks in my marina really enjoy theirs. They use it like a weekend condo and have a ball. It's a solid boat.

Captain Bill · 21-12-2008, 17:08

Tropic cat, I won't disagree with anything you've said about the endeavourcat 30 as I have no first hand experience with them. The 30 was Endeavourcat's first cat design and I'm sure that many of the traits you have raised as issues with the design are in fact true. A number of items you have raised have been addressed in the 34 and 36 foot versions, including elimination of the outboard and an increase in the bridgedeck clearance. My first hand experience of course comes from the 44 foot version which I would expect to have at least speed advantages over the 34's and 36's.

imagine2frolic · 22-12-2008, 11:19

grunzter,

This might be a read you will enjoy.......i2f

Around the world on SLAPDASH

off-the-grid · 22-12-2008, 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by imagine2frolic

grunzter,

This might be a read you will enjoy.......i2f

Around the world on SLAPDASH

Thanks!

Actually I've already been in touch with them a few times...of course is there a Gem owner or wannabe Gem owner who hasn't?

And they're divers too!!

And they amazingly had even less training and experience than me when they left!!!

imagine2frolic · 22-12-2008, 12:20

I don't own a Gem, but I like his writing style so much. I had to drop them a line, and Seth answered back. He has been able to take the normal, and mundane, and make it a good read. There are tons of blogs, but most are boring......i2f