Catamaran build quality & life expectancy

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by grunzster

Sandy,

That's exactly what I'm doing. Yeah, changed my mind again.

Getting the offer sheet on the Gem I was looking at could have something to do with it. Also this one is already VERY well equipped. There really isn't much at all as far as upgrades/additional equipment I'll have to put money into.

Yeah that narrow beam and shallow draft is the reason it made my list in the first place...although I'd like to be on the hook as much as possible.

And lastly, to recite the mantra of the livingaboard forum.

Buy smaller...payoff faster...leave sooner.

Which one are you getting? [I have been staring at all of them for a few years]

[off-the-grid]

It's a 105M.

Technically it's not even for sale yet, but I've been in touch with the owner for a few months because I knew he was planning on selling.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by grunzster

It's a 105M.

Technically it's not even for sale yet, but I've been in touch with the owner for a few months because I knew he was planning on selling.

Best of luck.
They are not large but certainly have advantages.

[sandy daugherty]

Are you expecting to get a deal on it? Have you seen prices on other Geminis? IIRC Geminis have a pretty straight line depreciation, because of the large number of boats built and the fact that the boats have evolved relatively slowly. I would buy a late model 3400 that was equipped to my tastes and well maintained before I would buy a 105 that wasn't completely my cup of tea.

I think you could chart the actual selling prices against the age of the boat and be within $15,000 of all of them. An early 3000 (circa 1980?) could still fetch $40,000, and you can't spend more than $200,000 on a new one with every option; you do the graph!

[kevingy]

Originally Posted by grunzster

Rough plan is:

Hey, that's my plan too. The only exception is that I'm already in Florida and will be spending summers further north during huricane season.

[kevingy]

Originally Posted by grunzster

5. Eventually circumnavigate.

The broker I'm currently using has suggested (if not outright said) that newer (post-TPI) Lagoons and Leopards (as well as most other African built boats) are built for the charter and are not built to withstand crossing oceans. I don't know if it's fact or opinion. I tend to think that it's opinion. What are the opinions here?

[sandy daugherty]

Well, Kevingy, we can deduce that he was going to make a buck or two more by telling you that. The Charter-built boats came from South Africa on their own bottoms, and made it, with enough guts left to serve the charter market till the new wore off and the plumbing started to stink. They then will probably survive a few more years in the second tier charter market.

However, TPI Lagoons are pretty robust, and are priced accordingly.

[off-the-grid]

Originally Posted by sandy daugherty

Are you expecting to get a deal on it? Have you seen prices on other Geminis? IIRC Geminis have a pretty straight line depreciation, because of the large number of boats built and the fact that the boats have evolved relatively slowly. I would buy a late model 3400 that was equipped to my tastes and well maintained before I would buy a 105 that wasn't completely my cup of tea.

I agree. I want a 3400, 105M, or 105MC. In the end, my decision is going to be based on price, condition, and included extras.

Price is good compared to what I've seen in recent months (just saw 2 today, same year, with significantly higher asking prices), and better equipped than any of the others I've looked at. Also, although I haven't seen the boat in person yet, it appears to be great condition.

[off-the-grid]

Originally Posted by kevingy

Hey, that's my plan too. The only exception is that I'm already in Florida and will be spending summers further north during huricane season.

Pretty cool. We could almost end up on the same route. Except, I'd be spending summers at home and you'll be spending winters at home.

[off-the-grid]

Originally Posted by sandy daugherty

Well, Kevingy, we can deduce that he was going to make a buck or two more by telling you that. The Charter-built boats came from South Africa on their own bottoms, and made it, with enough guts left to serve the charter market till the new wore off and the plumbing started to stink. They then will probably survive a few more years in the second tier charter market.

However, TPI Lagoons are pretty robust, and are priced accordingly.

Kinda like the broker I called about a Gem a few months ago. When the boat turned to sold, he kept pushing an FP on me and went on and on about the Geminis being the biggest POS. Wonder what he had to say to the buyer of the Gemini?

Or the other broker who I had a few emails with about Gems. Then I introduced myself at the Annapolis show, when I recognized the name, but he was kind of cold/unfriendly. Really came off kind of arrogant. Guess I wasn't worth talking to since I wasn't ready to make an immediate purchase during those previous emails?

Between the little experience I've had and the horror stories I've read on some of these boards, I'm already not a big fan of brokers. Best part about that 105, is it's not even listed yet, so if I wind up taking there isn't going to be a broker involved in the deal.

[Mark424]

Originally Posted by kevingy

The broker I'm currently using has suggested (if not outright said) that newer (post-TPI) Lagoons and Leopards (as well as most other African built boats) are built for the charter and are not built to withstand crossing oceans. I don't know if it's fact or opinion. I tend to think that it's opinion. What are the opinions here?

My opinion is that would be my ex-broker!

The most important part of the boat to enable crossing oceans is the crew. After my first passage from CA to French Polynesia in '91 I met a guy on the wharf in Papeete that had some crossed solo from Acapulco on a 30' wooden ketch that had no motor and no refrigeration. I wouldn't have stepped on that boat if it was tied to the dock - but he was doing quite well.

Every boat is a compromise and to be sure many of the boats that are destined for the charter trade make compromises to keep costs down. That doesn't mean they will disintegrate on their first trip offshore. The more toward the "cheaper" boats you go, the more maintenance you should expect as everything from plumbing to door hinges is chosen to fit within the target "price" for the boat.

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by grunzster

Kinda like the broker I called about a Gem a few months ago. When the boat turned to sold, he kept pushing an FP on me and went on and on about the Geminis being the biggest POS. Wonder what he had to say to the buyer of the Gemini?
.

There's a Catalac 10M in St. Petersburg that's twice the boat the Gemini is for 1/2 the price.

It's Blue water ready now. Check out yachtworld.

[PineyWoodsPete]

Originally Posted by grunzster

Kinda like the broker I called about a Gem a few months ago. When the boat turned to sold, he kept pushing an FP on me and went on and on about the Geminis being the biggest POS. Wonder what he had to say to the buyer of the Gemini?

If you're considering much offshore sailing, I'd recommend the 105 over the 3400. I owned a new '94 3400 and sailed it pretty hard for a year, including the Bahama out islands in some pretty heavy stuff, and ended up with a break in the bottom of the main bulkhead on both sides under the doors. The bottom wasn't bonded at all - just free-hanging under the door cutout. Tony Smith said "They all do that. That's why I recommended coastal cruising only." Otherwise an excellent boat except for the bad bridgedeck pounding going into a chop. My first cat, with the best owner's double ever. The 105 is apparently built to offshore specs and supposedly pounds less.

In '96 we graduated to a used '93 FP Antigua 37 in charter in the San Juans and went from the top of Vancouver I. on the W coast to the top of Nova Scotia, then back to FL over four years and over 20,000 nm's. A wonderful sea boat, light on her feet and fast for a cruising cat, with great under-clearance, good windward performance with the 3'6" draft, and the usual good FP compromise between speed and load-carrying ability. But the aft queen berths were no match for the Gemini's master suite! Aside from a few small dents in the hull skin/core from hard rubber fenders on the tug we rafted against on our Canal transit, she was bulletproof - no signs of stress in her totally monocoque construction.

Pete

[Tropic Cat]

The Gemini's build quality has been noted in several threads here in the forum. There are other boats better suited for going off shore.

[off-the-grid]

Originally Posted by PineyWoodsPete

If you're considering much offshore sailing, I'd recommend the 105 over the 3400. I owned a new '94 3400 and sailed it pretty hard for a year, including the Bahama out islands in some pretty heavy stuff, and ended up with a break in the bottom of the main bulkhead on both sides under the doors. The bottom wasn't bonded at all - just free-hanging under the door cutout. Tony Smith said "They all do that. That's why I recommended coastal cruising only." Otherwise an excellent boat except for the bad bridgedeck pounding going into a chop. My first cat, with the best owner's double ever. The 105 is apparently built to offshore specs and supposedly pounds less.

In '96 we graduated to a used '93 FP Antigua 37 in charter in the San Juans and went from the top of Vancouver I. on the W coast to the top of Nova Scotia, then back to FL over four years and over 20,000 nm's. A wonderful sea boat, light on her feet and fast for a cruising cat, with great under-clearance, good windward performance with the 3'6" draft, and the usual good FP compromise between speed and load-carrying ability. But the aft queen berths were no match for the Gemini's master suite! Aside from a few small dents in the hull skin/core from hard rubber fenders on the tug we rafted against on our Canal transit, she was bulletproof - no signs of stress in her totally monocoque construction.

Pete

It's almost def going to be a 105M. I don't see myself doing any passages more than a few days at the most.

If and when that blue water comes calling, and I'm going to do some REAL voyaging, I'll probably move up to a Lagoon...maybe an FP.