Cat - Rising water failure modes

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by Rustytony

Um, Er, a few misunderstandings in here I think.

First off... yeah Leopard cats get boat delivered, but also delivery captained. Saying they are not seaworthy is not a fact... it’s an opinion... but opinions vary.

Second off... 14 inches below the water DOES look like a fire hose when it pours in through a sufficiently large opening. But even a trickle can give you giant problems if it’s happening while you are not there or are asleep.

Third off... yes watertight bulkheads are the best defence... but this thread is asking (and not receiving as yet) opinions on whether there are any differentiation in this ’water ingress’ regard between the big prod companies. Eg do they all spray foam into bulkhead cable access holes?

Lastly, worrying about battery position is not a “nill” concern... if you are looking at this aspect of the boats then it certainly is something to consider. Your large bilge pumps, for instance, will no longer work if the level reaches your batteries terminals.

I was not looking for a “forward bathtub” debate. Or a “prod cats are not seaworthy” debate... the forum is full of them.

The one thing I wanted to know was if anyone had views about the actual pros and cons for handling a “taking on water” situation. Thanks for any advice.

Um, Err, you start out saying that what people put in their responses are opinions and then follow that with your own fact statements. It's your opinion that water coming in from 14" below the water line does look like a fire hose. Now, when I pull my speed transducer out of it's socket when in the water, there's a near 2" hole in the bottom of my boat. Water sure hasn't hit the ceiling, nor even welled up more than a few inches. So maybe firemen can put out fires with that type of pressure, but it doesn't seem much.

You replied to this part of my post "There are so many more important features to be concerned about compared to the location of batteries with a flooded boat as to make this concern nill." I still stand by that. Your concern might be valid, but it's not much of a concern compared to - jeez - nearly everything else - IMO

[Rustytony]

Originally Posted by Palarran

Um, Err, you start out saying that what people put in their responses are opinions and then follow that with your own fact statements. It's your opinion that water coming in from 14" below the water line does look like a fire hose. Now, when I pull my speed transducer out of it's socket when in the water, there's a near 2" hole in the bottom of my boat. Water sure hasn't hit the ceiling, nor even welled up more than a few inches. So maybe firemen can put out fires with that type of pressure, but it doesn't seem much.



You replied to this part of my post "There are so many more important features to be concerned about compared to the location of batteries with a flooded boat as to make this concern nill." I still stand by that. Your concern might be valid, but it's not much of a concern compared to - jeez - nearly everything else - IMO

I think you might be missing the whole point. Fire hose.... yeah it’s not ACTUALLY a high pressure fire hose.

But your initial response was, (and this latest remains,) a dismissal of the whole question because ‘it’s not as important as all other boat selection questions’ (paraphrasing)

That’s missing the point and other people in here have already disagreed with that because a couple have already said it’s worth considering. And I KNOW it is. It’s just one more thing to look at, and certainly if doing a refit it’s worth taking into consideration. Saying it’s not, is missing an important factor in boat safety.

I won’t be engaging you further.

[leftbrainstuff]

Originally Posted by Rustytony

Thanks for the replies but I probably disagree a little bit... Leopards have been delivered on their bottoms from CapeTown to all over the world. There is plenty of discussions around this forum about blue water capability of prod cats...

let’s put that aside for the moment.

As to the idea they are not designed for considering taking on water... well why the hell not? there’s teams of people working full time on their designs...

Actually I dont think it’s true that no thought or design on that has happened. Some, for instance, have water tight engine compartments and bow crush bulkheads.

So I guess I’m really asking those that have or know well a fairly recent prod cat... what do you think of your boats rising water survivability?

Will critical systems fail and water spread before you can have a chance to control it? (Obviously that’s an unknown and wildly variable, but just as a rough first approximation type thing...)

Thanks for any thoughts or inputs... even the ones poo-pooing prod cats...

Those people are not working hard to make them unsinkable. They're working to a set of business constraints that includes, cost, regulation, marketing, customer feature requests, etc.

Any boat can cross an ocean and the unsinkable Titanic well...

I would be more concerned about those stupid upside down escape hatches they install that have 'windows' that fall out.

The market is littered with good, well built yachts whose makers have gone bust.

It's a reality that you can't build an unsinkable recreational boat and be profitable.

But you can complete corrective and preventative maintenance, not defer maintenance and not do stupid things lime install brass plumbing from home depot, use cheap hose and hose clamps.

[Dulcesuenos]

I used to thinkn my athena would float if holed. It has a sealed crash compartment forward, and a foam filled compartment forward and one aft not quite full but a lot of foam and foam cored above waterline. Then I spent 2 days helping the guy on another Athena in panama who left an escape hatch open and had hit his keel. His boat was still Buoyant on the swamped hull, but barely , and the water was to the ceiling. Had this not happened near shore where he could beach part of it, I'm not sure he would have saved the boat. I also wonder if it went packed with tons of cruising and liveaboard stuff, would it have been anymore buoyant. Some people make many assumptions until reality proves otherwise,,,

[Rustytony]

Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff

Those people are not working hard to make them unsinkable.

Agreed. I don’t think anyone thinks they are. But if I was a production boat builder I would spend at least a small amount of time considering water ingress failure modes.

After all these years I doubt they have never considered it. Some actions to slow ingress are cheap, and some could become selling points.

I’m just asking if anyone knows of any major differences between the brands.

I know for instance that early leopards had cabling and structural conduits that meant water in one hull could soon arrive at the other. I don’t know if that persists and obviously even if so it is only after the base of the bridgedeck is at water level.

It’s a good point made about needing an axe to get access to certain parts of a hull breach. So in my mind ability to actually see the outer hull is a useful ability.

Battery positioning, wiring conduits foam filled at compartment crossovers, rudder post heights etc... they all play into this and are of interest to me.

Thank you to those who have shared their boat setup and observations.

Do you consider that you will still have power if there is a significant ingress in a hull?

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by Rustytony

I think you might be missing the whole point. Fire hose.... yeah it’s not ACTUALLY a high pressure fire hose.

But your initial response was, (and this latest remains,) a dismissal of the whole question because ‘it’s not as important as all other boat selection questions’ (paraphrasing)

That’s missing the point and other people in here have already disagreed with that because a couple have already said it’s worth considering. And I KNOW it is. It’s just one more thing to look at, and certainly if doing a refit it’s worth taking into consideration. Saying it’s not, is missing an important factor in boat safety.

I won’t be engaging you further.

Well, ok - but that last line makes you sound like a cry baby. You were the one who said (in CAPS) that it DOES.

Originally Posted by Rustytony

One thing that occurs to me as a potential differentiator for the production cat might be how they handle taking on water.

For instance if batteries were all in the lowest spot that would be a fail. I am sure they are not. But how the cats handle say a cracked through hull might be different for different manufacturers.

All wiring up high and perhaps designed for protecting critical systems would be a win.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the production cats design as they settle down into water? Do they maybe differ in a reef strike survivability? Rudder post leak?

Just trying to see if the failure mode designs are significantly better or worse for any particular brand.

Your right that how catamarans handle large volumes of water is an important safety factor. Of course the first major design parameter, if this is omnipotent to you, is to have a boat that's not sinkable. As thread after thread has shown here, most won't sink totally. So most won't sink, what would now be the best safety parameter for flooding? Probably watertight bulkheads right? Then good bilge pumps, batteries, alarms, quality thru-hulls, well built boat, etc. These are absolutely important and most new production cats have these features and meet an acceptable level of safety.

But whether you agree or not, it's my opinion that when you actually go to buy a cat, it's helm location, sail plan, accomodations, galley, price, and a host of other factors that differentiate catamaran builders and models rather than how they handle taking on water.

[Mr B]

Sinking your boat happens to other people, Not yours,
Its the same as a home invasion, Happens to other people, Not you,
So no one seriously thinks of what to do if their boat starts taking on water,

The salon cushion covers need changing, Will the fridge keep my beer cold,

I have bilge pumps, Do they work, No idea, Hahahaaha But they are there,
The shower pump works, That will save me, Hahahaha
I have a manual pump too, Does it work, No idea on that one either,
5 minutes solid on a manual pump when your boat is sinking, Its heart attack time,
You need to be physically fit to use a manual pump,
Half a dozen pumps on the dock to make sure it works,
Isnt using it in anger when its needed,