Can you have Comfort, Value and Performance in a Catamaran?

[Hartings]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

Privilege aquired by Hanse owner Aurelius, though. To me, "production boat" has become more a recipe for good than bad: promise of efficient standardized processes, good quality, good support, good resale value.

Interesting view. To me ‘production boat’ means - you take exactly what we build for everyone else including Ikea interiors and we flay you alive on pricing for anything extra and you get no say into who the makers are of the equipment. Most of them go into the charter market for a reason. The OP said he was looking for somewhat better performance and you generally don’t get that with production boats. All I’m saying is that there are alternatives to look at where performance will be better. Privilege build semi-bespoke boats which by definition makes them a non-production manufacturer in my book, irrespective of who ultimately owns them.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Astroman

I don't know if I really want to mess with Daggerboards on the Seawind.... .

You're going to find sails a terrible hassle then.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

You're going to find sails a terrible hassle then.

Judging by the amount of fine sailing boats we see motoring around in perfect sailing conditions I gather a lot of people do.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Hartings

Interesting view. To me ‘production boat’ means - you take exactly what we build for everyone else including Ikea interiors and we flay you alive on pricing for anything extra and you get no say into who the makers are of the equipment. Most of them go into the charter market for a reason. The OP said he was looking for somewhat better performance and you generally don’t get that with production boats. All I’m saying is that there are alternatives to look at where performance will be better. Privilege build semi-bespoke boats which by definition makes them a non-production manufacturer in my book, irrespective of who ultimately owns them.

Yes! Thank you for the counterargument!

I think some 'production builders' are really good at personalizing their boats, so it's not at all exactly what everyone else gets.

More importantly, though, I think it's more a question of economics and what the consumer wants -- or what the consumer is more than happy to accept.

We have this beautiful, wonderful, non-production brand, Swan, over here in Finland, and I think most sailors would agree that they have made, and are making, superb boats.

But is their business sustainable? I overheard someone saying they make substantial losses on each new boat they sell. I hope this is not true, but what if it is?

What do I really want as a sailor? To get out sailing, safely, in good comfort? Or something else? Where do I compromise?

If I get what I essentially want, and at half the price compared to a "non-production" brand, is the answer really that hard?

So, for my part, I think going down the "production" route is the future. And buying boats from companies that make a decent profit selling the boats, that's a sustainable future.

[SailingSisu]

We have the Leopard 45 and I closed the deal just before they released the Leopard 50...Have a look at the L50. The sailing channel "Happy Together" got a L50 Performance version which do mot feature the top lounge (I also don't like it). If you have time, look at their videos in Cape Town, Cape of Storms, where they sailed in 40kts of wind with full sail plan... super impressive! Their later videos are all about their refitting and getting it ready for circumnavigation. Off course, we still love our L45 :-)

[smj]

Originally Posted by SailingSisu

We have the Leopard 45 and I closed the deal just before they released the Leopard 50...Have a look at the L50. The sailing channel "Happy Together" got a L50 Performance version which do mot feature the top lounge (I also don't like it). If you have time, look at their videos in Cape Town, Cape of Storms, where they sailed in 40kts of wind with full sail plan... super impressive! Their later videos are all about their refitting and getting it ready for circumnavigation. Off course, we still love our L45 :-)

Maybe just me, but if a catamaran can sail in 40 kts of wind with no reefs it means it’s a pig in light to medium winds. And I’m guessing most sailing is done in light to medium winds?

[yeloya]

M 750 US is not a bad budget, you can have brand new FP Saona 47 for instance. (genset, A/C etc. will add another75-80 grand). If you are looking for a bit of performing boat, Leopard, Lagoon and FP won't work. (except, old L 47, L 380 and all previous FP's) Privilege is even slower albeit very robust and much better finished than the rest.
At this price range one of the best option would be Catana IMO . In yr price range you can find 6-7 years old C50 or 3-4 years old C47. You are saying that you don't like the helm position (like many other forumers) but this is the boat which has much larger volume than equivalent Outremer and almost similar performance. (I've sailed both..) The trouble is that they are very few in the market.. They are very easy to be singlehanded, very strong and keep their values well in second hand market.
Finally, don't understand why you should be messing with daggerboards , they don't need to be trimmed more often than the sails, actually much less. If you haven't yet tried a cat with daggerboards, I strongly suggest you to do so, you'll love it if you like to sail.

Cheers

Yeloya

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by smj

Maybe just me, but if a catamaran can sail in 40 kts of wind with no reefs it means it’s a pig in light to medium winds. And I’m guessing most sailing is done in light to medium winds?

Hard for me to think of any boat/rig that could do that. Even something like a Walker Wing never made that claim.

My experience has been that most sailing is done in light winds; while I was wishing for medium winds.

[Pete7]

[QUOTE=Astroman;3077016]

Originally Posted by Pete7

I guess I don't want to be stuck at 5-7 knots on long passages. Goal is comfortably sail in light wind. At 15 knots could you get 8-10 knot? Shaving a week from Panama to Marquesas is $$ in fuel, food, comfort.

I think that is a reasonable expectation for a large cat, assuming you don't fill it with tonnes of junk, though with 4 kids, two dinghies will be useful.

Pete

[Tin Tin]

Here you go and half your budget
https://au.yachtworld.com/boats/2002...light-3608156/

[conchaway]

Someone told me that, as long as you don't plan to ever challenge the sea, any catamaran is great.

[smj]

Originally Posted by conchaway

Someone told me that, as long as you don't plan to ever challenge the sea, any catamaran is great.

And once you get some experience you can think for yourself and not rely on what someone told you.

[Astroman]

Originally Posted by Hartings

IMHO neither are production boats - they offer the buyer the opportunity to change many things which production manufacturers won’t do, including sail plans.
There are others - Antares, Seawind, Discovery, Maverick, Balance etc etc
You say you saw the Knysna at a boat show so I assume you must have seen others too ?

Antares/Maverick are 44' so skipped them (4 kids!). Discovery a bit high end.

I like the Seawind 1600 and Balance. Both boats are years outs for delivery and not much on market.

So, looks like Privilege and Knysna are good options for non production cats.

[Astroman]

Originally Posted by yeloya

M 750 US is not a bad budget, you can have brand new FP Saona 47 for instance. (genset, A/C etc. will add another75-80 grand). If you are looking for a bit of performing boat, Leopard, Lagoon and FP won't work. (except, old L 47, L 380 and all previous FP's) Privilege is even slower albeit very robust and much better finished than the rest.
At this price range one of the best option would be Catana IMO . In yr price range you can find 6-7 years old C50 or 3-4 years old C47. You are saying that you don't like the helm position (like many other forumers) but this is the boat which has much larger volume than equivalent Outremer and almost similar performance. (I've sailed both..) The trouble is that they are very few in the market.. They are very easy to be singlehanded, very strong and keep their values well in second hand market.
Finally, don't understand why you should be messing with daggerboards , they don't need to be trimmed more often than the sails, actually much less. If you haven't yet tried a cat with daggerboards, I strongly suggest you to do so, you'll love it if you like to sail.

Cheers

Yeloya

I guess my inexperience is the reason to not like them. Someone (broker) said they could rip a hole in the hull if I hit something. (his boats did not have them obviously). I looked at the Catana at the show. Really nice boat. Would love some protection on the helm. But, the argument is "why would you be outside in bad weather? just captain inside." I'm a novice. Is it really that easy to just stay inside in bad weather?

[Astroman]

As I contemplate buying a boat, I've come to a realize of the problem. (And this is by no means a slap to the other boat manufactures).

the reason I can't find a boat with performance, value and comfort is because.....Ready for this......

There are NO Japanese Boat Manufacturers!

Honestly though. Where is the Toyota/Honda of Catamarans? (Knysna probably comes close).

We need to get the japanese into cruising....