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Old 06-03-2020, 06:40   #211
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Re: Can you have Comfort, Value and Performance in a Catamaran?

It always seems I'm going upwind both ways.
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Old 08-03-2020, 18:39   #212
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Re: Can you have Comfort, Value and Performance in a Catamaran?

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It always seems I'm going upwind both ways.
That is actually not just an old joke. On boats that perform well the apparent will be pulled forward and the boats will often be sailing "upwind" in apparent terms, even when broad reaching to true wind, the slower the boat the less this occurs.
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Old 09-03-2020, 05:23   #213
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Re: Can you have Comfort, Value and Performance in a Catamaran?

76 cruising cats (and a AC45) in 32 races/rallies.
Performance varies more from crew, than from make in near similar types
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Old 26-09-2020, 12:38   #214
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Re: Can you have Comfort, Value and Performance in a Catamaran?

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Originally Posted by Astroman View Post
Can I have value, performance and comfort in one boat? It does not seem like it. Let's say my budget is 750k but I don't want to buy anything older than 2015. The boat must be >48ft. I have 4 kids and I'd like a minimum of 4 cabins. I prioritize comfort and value but I would LOVE a bit of performance. From what I've read, it's going to be difficult.

Requirements:
  • 2015 or newer
  • 750k or lessr
  • 4 cabin minumum
  • 48' or bigger
  • hybrid helm, (no flybridge. Aft helm not preferred...but
  • safe

with these requirements i'm steered towards the production cats. Leopard 48, FP Saba or Lagoon 52S. I also like the older Privilege 5 or Serie 5.

I read (and looked at specs!) that these boats are heavy and not going to move too well.

If you needed comfort and value, what boat would you choose that would give it a leg up on the 'performance' side (or can i have it too?).
Hi Astroman, I have the exact same requirements as you. Have you found a solution? Would save me a whole lot of analysis paralysis to get your feedback, thanks! Mark
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Old 26-09-2020, 14:57   #215
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Re: Can you have Comfort, Value and Performance in a Catamaran?

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I can put you on to a 2019 Lagoon 52S that is basically a distressed sale. All the bells and whistles. If you have cash you could negotiate it to 750K......
Gary, I don't suppose that Lagoon is still available?
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Old 26-09-2020, 16:00   #216
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Re: Can you have Comfort, Value and Performance in a Catamaran?

If this thread is still of interest to the OP, I think he should tell us more about the age of his kids and his level of experience. If he is a novice and the kids are young, he should really forget about the performance aspect, as all of the boats discussed can be sailed adequately. But you don't need performance maxed out to enjoy cruising with a young family.
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Old 28-09-2020, 06:19   #217
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Re: Can you have Comfort, Value and Performance in a Catamaran?

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Hi Astroman, I have the exact same requirements as you. Have you found a solution? Would save me a whole lot of analysis paralysis to get your feedback, thanks! Mark
Hi Mark,
After months of searching, reading and on viewings, I bought a boat. Here is my analysis and one person's opinion.

My requirements were:

- 4+ Cabin
- Hybrid helm (Helm is halfway up cockpit and sees over salon. no fly bridge, no aft helm).
- no daggerboards
- extended liveaboard, and ability to travel to south pacific
- spacious
- 45+ Ft
- < 900k
- 2014 or newer

My kids are 5, 9, 11, 13

Some very good boats from smaller builders but I mainly focused on the Big three production cat. You don't find many used from smaller guys but they do pop up (Knysna, Seawind, Privilege, St Frances, etc..) - No Bali. Bali really is not meant for water sailing">blue water sailing. definite Party Boat


the Big three (leopard, Lagoon, Fountaine) all have online super fans, all make sea worthy boats and are about the same when it comes to performance. They are made to go 6-8 knts on average. They can outperform each other not based on their bareboat configuration but how good a captain you are and equipment you put on. Folding props, sail plan, how much extra weight, etc. But to say Lagoon, Leopard or FP are better or worse than each other is not a winnable debate. It depends on the year it was built and condition of the boat (factories seem to go through changes with ownership regularly and with that build quality)

that said, after a boat is 5 years old, it's more about how well it's been kept up and what kind of maintenance has been done, etc. A 5 year old boat may be in worse shape than a 10 year old boat that has been meticulously cared for. You will find people that had success with an Ex charter and done quite well. And on the contrary, many say don't touch them. Of course Ex charter boats can work, many people buy them and do quite well. Used boats are not created equal.

With the Big Three, pricing is about the same with used boats. These are value driven builders.

Cabin layout is pretty much the same. 4 Person charter version and 3 person owner version. We needed the 4 person cabin.

Many new lagoons have a fly bridge helm and we did not want that for longer passages. And, I wanted to see what was going on below easily from the helm. I did not look at any lagoons in person (except at boat shows).

I trained on a Leopard 44 and really liked the Front Porch seating. This is unique to Leopard boats. .

After looking at dozens and dozens of boats, the following were on our list.

FP Salina 48
FP saba 50

Leopard 46
Leopard 45
Leopard 48 (lots of these, and many cruising families love them)

In the end, I did not buy any of these. A 2020 Leopard 50 came on the market and the deal was too good to pass up. It was within budget and checked the boxes. It's going to be a great family cruising boat. Like all boats, it's not perfect. We will have issues, things will break, it wont always be as fast as we want, etc. But, I don't know of a boat that does with our requirements. PM me if you have other questions.
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Old 28-09-2020, 07:16   #218
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Re: Can you have Comfort, Value and Performance in a Catamaran?

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I guess my inexperience is the reason to not like them. Someone (broker) said they could rip a hole in the hull if I hit something. (his boats did not have them obviously). I looked at the Catana at the show. Really nice boat. Would love some protection on the helm. But, the argument is "why would you be outside in bad weather? just captain inside." I'm a novice. Is it really that easy to just stay inside in bad weather?
Yes. Provided you are not over canvassed. it is arguably the best place to be. More and more designs - mono and multi - are going for the internal cockpit. Makes you think about internal hand holds though, something the newer production cats don't really have. Imagine being on an Excess in a blow for example, or a Bali. Other than the fridge door there is very little to hold on to.
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Old 28-09-2020, 07:27   #219
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Re: Can you have Comfort, Value and Performance in a Catamaran?

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No Bali. Bali really is not meant for blue water sailing. definite Party Boat
They're kind of proving everyone wrong. Not a single one has been shipped to its owner i.e. every single one has been sailed, a large proportion to the Carribean and some to both the South Pacific and Australia. With the modified escape hatch they are proving to be surprisingly sea worthy. They have good bridgedeck clearance and bow buoyancy at the expense of freeboard.

not saying I would want one (I am not a fan of the "cockloon", nor the helm position, nor the sail plan) but their record is beginning to silence their doubters.
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Old 28-09-2020, 09:21   #220
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Re: Can you have Comfort, Value and Performance in a Catamaran?

Sorry, I'm going to be the guy who just jumps straight to the last page and posts without reading everything in-between.

I read the OP and saw performance then boat names of motor sailers that aren't really a performance boat are they.

To answer the OP. Absolutely you can have a performance catamaran around that size, modern, and at that price.

Imagine performance of or better than a Gunboat, 150% of the luxury and for a better price than a Seawind. It is true but people for some unknown (perhaps Marketing) reason don't equate them to Gunboats they compare them to fringe dwellers or entry level performance mass production boats.

The modern Schionnings are a remarkable boat, made in large-ish numbers, they have it all and for some reason people don't see it. If you don't want to sail fast today, you don't have to but if you do you can. If you want to cruise at 6kn in 4kn of breeze you don't need to turn on a motor. If you want to go upwind, it's fun and faster than motoring. If you want ice or do your washing and drying you can.

They are a Gunboat for a Seawind price tag. Have a look you will be surprised at what has been under your nose the whole time.
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Old 28-09-2020, 10:31   #221
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Re: Can you have Comfort, Value and Performance in a Catamaran?

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The modern Schionnings are a remarkable boat.
I would add that I am based in the USA and so my search was confined to this hemisphere. I've never seen this boat for sale in the USA or discussed much so it was not on my list. Looks like a fine boat!
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Old 28-09-2020, 10:50   #222
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Re: Can you have Comfort, Value and Performance in a Catamaran?

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I would add that I am based in the USA and so my search was confined to this hemisphere. I've never seen this boat for sale in the USA or discussed much so it was not on my list. Looks like a fine boat!

They do come up in the US sometimes and there are some ship builders who have made a couple there I believe. I get asked about what's available here occasionally.

A large Schionning G Force based here can do twice wind speed. It's a proper cruising boat, family owned and usually in use up and down the Queensland coast, but it is an extreme example. That one might not be in budget though.

If you buy one here it will only take a few days to sail it home, I'll come with you.
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Old 30-09-2020, 17:29   #223
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Re: Can you have Comfort, Value and Performance in a Catamaran?

I wonder if somebody would explain what characteristics determine how smooth/stable/comfortable of a motion a cat has when riding waves in the ocean?

Length? beam? Shape of the hulls? Height? Weight?

Thanks.
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Old 01-10-2020, 16:00   #224
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Re: Can you have Comfort, Value and Performance in a Catamaran?

All of those factors will generate healthy discussions but I think length probably is up there at the top. Longer boats generally give a smoother ride. A zillion variables do come into play though.
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Old 01-10-2020, 16:09   #225
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Re: Can you have Comfort, Value and Performance in a Catamaran?

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All of those factors will generate healthy discussions but I think length probably is up there at the top. Longer boats generally give a smoother ride. A zillion variables do come into play though.


Yes, and one mans comfort is another man’s discomfort.
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