Are "Performance Cruising Catamarans" safe?

[smj]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I'd not call the Suzuki slow unless.. 1/4 mile 0-119mph in 11.9secs is your idea of slow..
Maybe the Yamaha 535.
As for weight, a 235kilo lift with a leg pinned under is not easy when your down slope of the weight.. and it only happened once.
As for your performance speeds.. I've done a steady 9 kts under 2/3rds genny downwind in 25kts going fro Gib to Gran Canaria on a Lagoon 380.. Maybe your not getting the best outa your 'performance' catamaran..
Chotu.... my best speed on a Catalac 9 was 18.65kts..
I was on a surf with severe sphincter reaction mind you.

Funny you should mention the Lagoon 380.
Last year we were sailing on a light wind (6-8kt) broad reach with full main and 100% jib. We passed a 380 that had full main and large assym making probably 2+kts better boat speed. So one of these scenarios has to be true.
1) we have a fast boat
2) the 380 is a slug
3) both of the above
4) he was a worst sailer than I, which would be hard to believe as my skills are crap!
Our best speed has been 16.6 under double reefed main 100% jib on a broad reach in 20 gusting a little higher. No surfing. The boats best speed was 26.5 under the previous owner who raced and wasn’t a crappy sailer!

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Jesus!!! 18.65 on a 9m?!?

That is crazy and very stressful on the boat for sure. Pushed to its absolute limit. I am pretty sure at that point you were planing. Ha ha.

I took mine out in a gale and I think I still only got something like 12 kn out of it on perfectly flat water. And mine was a 10M.

But again this conversation shouldn’t be about the maximum. That’s not why we have performance Catamarans.

The reason most of us have them is so we can sail when everyone else is motoring.

The Catalac could not do that. You had to fire up the motors all the time with that boat in light air. It was awful. It was a power boat.

And I can safely say that I have spent much much more time wishing for more wind on boats than less. I need a boat that solved all my problems. The performance Catamaran ticks those boxes.

It only lasted a very long minute then the wave passed..
But yeah, once the wind went <10kts it was fire up the engines if you were in a rush.. you should have bought an Iroquois, the performance cruising cat of the day.

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by boatman61

It only lasted a very long minute then the wave passed..

But yeah, once the wind went &lt;10kts it was fire up the engines if you were in a rush.. you should have bought an Iroquois, the performance cruising cat of the day.

I bet it didn’t feel like a minute :-)

[Lee Jerry]

Originally Posted by Factor

Yep - I get it. A chainsaw and a boat is the same thing. Got it now.

If you don't know what an analogy is, perhaps an internet search might help.

FMD, have you ever sailed any of the boats we are talking about here, eg Outremer?

Do try to keep up.

[Lee Jerry]

Originally Posted by Chotu

This isn’t a bad analogy.

Rather than the best tool to get the job done (the chain saw or performance catamaran), you propose we use tools that do not work well, but are more “safe?”

Once again, I never said that. Why do you all (you a couple times, but others too) keep making up stuff I never said. Are you that desperate to try to make me look bad? If you think I said this, show me where. Because I could show multiple times where I said the opposite, to sail whatever you want (maybe not in those words, so maybe you missed it, but “you do you” means that in the context). Once again, let me say: sail whatever the heck you want.

What I have been saying is that some catamarans are LESS SAFE than others. Not unsafe, not dangerous, just less safe. This is demonstrable by both simple analysis and also the data, and has been said / accepted by nearly everyone here, many of whom are cat owners. For example, a couple of the more recent:

Maybe for someone who knows nothing about sailing, a performance cat could be less safe, because they don't reef properly, or ... they can't bleed off loads in a squall by changing heading, or they can't listen to a boat and tell when she is yelling at them, or they think it is fun to cruise with a hull getting light, or they overload the boat with weight in the ends, or they can't reach the sheets from the helm or autopilot.

And then some bloke said this:

I’ve suffered through extremely safe catamarans like Catalacs.

If a previous boat was “extremely safe” what does make the current or subsequent boat(s)? Might that be "less safe?" Is this not right on point? You could find at least a dozen more examples in this thread.

Originally Posted by Chotu

Here are the most safe things to cut a log with in order of safety. Which one is “safe” enough for you? More importantly why do you live in fear and require “safety” from inferior tools instead of performance?

Where do you end such a self limiting concept anyway?

If you have some wood to cut, are you doing it with the herring because it’s the most safe option? It can’t cut you at all, so that’s the one you’d choose?

Originally Posted by Chotu

And for good measure, here are the most safe boats. They are significantly more safe than a Hylas. Are these ones you would choose?

The first one is a little scary because it’s tall and you might fall off. So I would probably go for the one with the flowers. It’s even more safe.

You seem a little hostile. You're not still mad about that kinetic energy thing, are you? You made a boo-boo and I pointed it out. Does that make us mortal enemies for life now? What's that thing about don't kill the messenger? Just admit you made a mistake (we don't have to use the 'w' word), at least to yourself (this is the internet, so no one expects it in public), accept it, and move on.

Originally Posted by Chotu

In fact, that’s all these performance Catamarans really are. They are good sailing boats. That’s it. Instead of being a motorboat with some sails on it. They are like a J24 or something.

If you think a J24 is a "good sailing boat" ... well, then I think that speaks for itself.

It's also a little ironic that you pick one of, if not THE least safe monohulls ever made.

[Boatguy30]

What does unsafe mean?
All cats have rapidly vanishing stability after about 10 degrees of heel. Get in waves larger than the beam and there all roughly in the same danger.
Would seem to me an Antares or PDQ would be pretty sinkable.

[catsketcher]

Lee, I am not sure if you are trying to troll or if you are being obscure, but I will have one more go.

Performance cats can be less safe in negligently inexperienced hands in some conditions but more safe in the hands of a reasonable sailor, only reasonable, not expert. They can also be far easier to sail in many modes, because their foils work well, and they tack and gybe well, or because you can sail them with less sail, not more than heavier boats. Remember focussing only on capsize resistance is a very narrow view of safety, there are many more factors involved and as someone who has had these types of boats for decades I can think of many times when such a boat has improved safety as in my last post.

Take our last big trip, to Tasmania. We waited in Eden until a reasonably light to moderate high pressure system wafted over us. We motored out of Eden after dawn (improved safety by waiting for some light) and then about 20 miles down the coast started motor sailing. Within another 2 hours we were sailing at 8 knots.

To get to Wineglass Bay is close to 330 miles from Eden across some of the nastiest seas in Australia. So we put up our reacher and as the wind built the boat sped up , by midday we were on course and averaging about 8-10 knots. In the afternoon we sped up some more putting 12 miles under the keel every hour (that means hitting at least 15s regularly). At dusk we furled the reacher and sped on in total safety, doing 10s regularly with a smooth following sea. Never a worry or tightening of the rectum at any time, the boat was loving it and taking great care of us. By late the next morning we were off St Helens (about 270 nautical miles on the chart) at the northern corner of Tassie. The forecast had changed slightly and we were due to have a front come in in about 6 hours. We may have been able to make Wineglass, but as the wind had dropped in the early hours we had slowed to 6s, so we entered the shallow bar at St Helens about 6 hours before a nasty southerly came through, with us showered, crew packed for returning and having seen some of the town. It was a great and SAFE night at anchor instead of plugging into it in the dark.

In fact in the many thousands of miles our cat has taken us, we have almost never been pasted, because our cat allows us to sail in lighter weather windows, in more benign conditions, with more comfort and higher speeds than other cats. I am out of practice in getting bashed by the weather because we are almost always where the bad weather is not.

An inability to understand that safety is a multifaceted approach earns little respect from those of us who have benefited from the real and appreciable merits of a cat that can sail well and swiftly when required, yet still, in the hands of anyone with a mere modicum of ability, be reefed and have massive stability reserves when required. It does neophytes and those wanting to learn about design, no good to hear from people who have little experience in performance cats, decrying their abilties based on a single facet. Those of us who build and design cats know that the design and the analysis of a design is a very multi faceted thing that requires significant appreciation of subtleties and refinements, not a single measure.

[chubby]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

L....
Performance cats can be less safe in negligently inexperienced hands in some conditions but more safe in the hands of a reasonable sailor, only reasonable, not expert. They can also be far easier to sail in many modes, because their foils work well, and they tack and gybe well, or because you can sail them with less sail, not more than heavier boats. ......

this pretty much sums up the the thread.


performance cats ARE less safe less experienced hands...
this is true.
errors that would usually be a learning experiences could be catastrophic with too much canvas on to light a vessel



unfortunately, these "performance oriented" brands aren't marketed towards expert sailors (imo)


and they are targeting the less experienced (new sailors with money)
..why else would are they (aggressively) seeking popular influencers such as the bumfuzzles and the hordes of youtube personalities as 'product ambassadors' ?



btw, there is nothing wrong with this...
one can easily question if any catamaran is safe?...is sailing safe? ...are (any) boats safe? (is living..even safe?)




and for those outremer, HH, et al. execs wondering .... yes, i can be bought.
you can PM me for a "brand ambassador" conversation ..

[catsketcher]

You forgot to read the whole paragraph, which is why I get a little peeved.

In some situations a lighter/faster boat will be less safe (squall with full sail up) BUT and this is a big but that should not be left out of things, they can also in other situations be safer too (see previous post). You didn't highlight that bit. It's complicated.

Please read the whole of the last post. It is getting grating to be condescended to when I have spent about 75% of my life sailing these type of boats with my kids on board for 5 years. No one takes their family out on boats if they dont trust them implicitly.

So one more time

Sometime performance cats are less safe, sometimes they are MORE safe. On the whole - it's probably pretty close but for me the differences are minor because of the way I cruise. You can choose a different cat for perfectly valid reasons, but don't think that a swift daggerboard cat will not be safer in a whole range of situations compared to a production cat. Just as the production cat will have some obvious advantages in other situations. Our boats have to cope with a very wide range of situations and to focus on just one point is pretty silly.

[chubby]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

You forgot to read the whole paragraph, which is why I get a little peeved.

In some situations a lighter/faster boat will be less safe (squall with full sail up) BUT and this is a big but that should not be left out of things, they can also in other situations be safer too (see previous post). You didn't highlight that bit. It's complicated.

Please read the whole of the last post. It is getting grating to be condescended to when I have spent about 75% of my life sailing these type of boats with my kids on board for 5 years. No one takes their family out on boats if they dont trust them implicitly.

So one more time

Sometime performance cats are less safe, sometimes they are MORE safe. On the whole - it's probably pretty close but for me the differences are minor because of the way I cruise. You can choose a different cat for perfectly valid reasons, but don't think that a swift daggerboard cat will not be safer in a whole range of situations compared to a production cat. Just as the production cat will have some obvious advantages in other situations. Our boats have to cope with a very wide range of situations and to focus on just one point is pretty silly.

less safe...or more safe to who?
you talking about yourself?
or a spanking new sailor...imo, that kinda matters.


do you actually believe that a bali cat or lagoon 42 outfitted to charter in the BVI (ie under canvased) is less safe to sail than a "performance cruisiing catamaran"?
more boring...yes. but unsafe (to anyone..in any situation?)

and the outrunning weather arguement..
with modern communications(ie starlink), lonng distance radar. and weather routing.. this should be less of an issue



i believe that Outremer that capsized last year was operated by experienced hands..
iirc, they were in flat waters (croatia) but caught by a bora wind








and why is it that practically every capsized catamaran you see has narrow hulls?
has ANY lagoon ever capsized?
ever?
there are a lot of hulls our there.. pretty sure they also get caught in microbursrts and bora winds....









btw, i was more responding to the OP. (i was just using your words) :-)

[smj]

Originally Posted by chubby

less safe...or more safe to who?
you talking about yourself?
or a spanking new sailor...imo, that kinda matters.


do you actually believe that a bali cat or lagoon 42 outfitted to charter in the BVI (ie under canvased) is less safe to sail than a "performance cruisiing catamaran"?
more boring...yes. but unsafe (to anyone..in any situation?)

and the outrunning weather arguement..
with modern communications(ie starlink), lonng distance radar. and weather routing.. this should be less of an issue



i believe that Outremer that capsized last year was operated by experienced hands..
iirc, they were in flat waters (croatia) but caught by a bora wind








and why is it that practically every capsized catamaran you see has narrow hulls?
has ANY lagoon ever capsized?
ever?
there are a lot of hulls our there.. pretty sure they also get caught in microbursrts and bora winds....









btw, i was more responding to the OP. (i was just using your words) :-)

Yes there have been a few Lagoons that have capsized and at least 1 Leopard.

[Kinkircating]

Originally Posted by chubby

this pretty much sums up the the thread.


performance cats ARE less safe less experienced hands...
this is true.
errors that would usually be a learning experiences could be catastrophic with too much canvas on to light a vessel



unfortunately, these "performance oriented" brands aren't marketed towards expert sailors (imo)


and they are targeting the less experienced (new sailors with money)
..why else would are they (aggressively) seeking popular influencers such as the bumfuzzles and the hordes of youtube personalities as 'product ambassadors' ?



btw, there is nothing wrong with this...
one can easily question if any catamaran is safe?...is sailing safe? ...are (any) boats safe? (is living..even safe?)




and for those outremer, HH, et al. execs wondering .... yes, i can be bought.
you can PM me for a "brand ambassador" conversation ..

So how many sea miles / years of sailing / # of oceans crossed would you say it takes for someone to have enough experience to sail a performance catamaran?

Also do you consider the OC44 the Wynn’s are endorsing or the Seawind 1370 Ruby Rose is advertising to be performance cats? I sure don’t, but if you do a Nautitech 44 is also a high performance cat I suppose.

In the end who cares what somebody else thinks, the entire concept of crossing oceans in sailboats in a day and age when airplanes exist then arguing about levels of safety of various boats is down right silly.

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by chubby

one can easily question if any catamaran is safe?...is sailing safe? ...are (any) boats safe? (is living..even safe?)

definitely not ! living is in fact...deadly !

cheers,

[Tin Tin]

Originally Posted by smj

Yes there have been a few Lagoons that have capsized and at least 1 Leopard.

Capsized by the wind? (not including hurricanes)

[Dizzyj]

Originally Posted by Franziska

I'd say if the beam is the same and the sail area is considerably smaller and has a lower center of effort probably yes.

Maybe the performance boat could have survived with some sort of a fuse in the rigging?
Possibly sacrifice the rigging but stay upright?

Total newbie here, first post, but have been reading everything I can. How do these fuses work? I’ve heard them mentioned but no real detail. Seems like there would be something sacrificial that would snap before the boat capsizes