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Old 25-03-2023, 09:20   #1
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Are "Performance Cruising Catamarans" safe?

Have a look at this video by Antares Catamarans.

https://youtu.be/G-Na3BbYhiY

Is it really that unsafe on high performance Catamarans available on the market? Or is it a case of " we don't have a competing product but still want to sell you a catamaran..."

I like the looks of say a Schionning, but if it is going to kill me...
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Old 25-03-2023, 10:01   #2
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Re: Are "Performance Cruising Catamarans" safe?

Actually, you could just as well ask if a Ferrari is unsafer than a limousine or SUV.

It's not much unsafer if you are skilled and responsible driver.

Skill is needed when you drive at high speed. Responsibility is factored in when you decide to go fast only on roads where it's safe to do so.

Same for a cat, with the added plus that you can outrun bad weather with the performance boat.

Obviously the higher performance boat requires more skill and responsibility as it's more unforgiving when you do not apply the two.

The problem are not the boats.

The problem is marketing, which makes less skilled and less responsible people think they can drive boats for which they have neither the skills nor the situational awareness required.

How often we do have threads here stating, "I never sailed but in x amount of time I want to sail around the world, how do I proceed". X often equal to 2-3 years or less.
These folks then tend to buy far to big boats because they want all the comforts from home and the performance marketing makes them believe they need to have (which they can't handle because of lack of experience).

Circumnavigations surely can be done carefully and safe. But it requires years of experience to do so safely. People starting threads like the one I mentioned usually don't have that.
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Old 25-03-2023, 10:17   #3
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Re: Are "Performance Cruising Catamarans" safe?

A video put out by an owner of a slow outdated catamaran, who would have thunk it!
Which would be safer, sailing a performance cat in 20kts of wind making 8kts of boat speed with just a 300sq ft roller furling jib up or a heavy catamaran making the same speed in the same wind but needing the full 1000sq ft of working sail flying to achieve the same results? The heavier catamaran will have much more stress put on both boat and crew. Of course the performance cat could also fly a double reefed main with their full jib and maybe achieve 12kts if they wanted, but the heavier cat?......
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Old 25-03-2023, 11:23   #4
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Re: Are "Performance Cruising Catamarans" safe?

Franziska beat me to it.

This is the answer. Is a Ferrari unsafe?

The answer is maybe. If you don't know how to drive one carefully and pay attention.
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Old 25-03-2023, 11:44   #5
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Re: Are "Performance Cruising Catamarans" safe?

Taking advice from YT is like taking medical advice from your used car salesperson. You need to remember that people who post there have their own agendas. ALWAYS.
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Old 26-03-2023, 11:06   #6
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Re: Are "Performance Cruising Catamarans" safe?

I can imagine it’s very challenging to sell boats designed last century that haven’t evolved in today’s environment.

This guy really did himself and Antares a disservice by putting out such a misleading video.

Using the Arc Rally as data to support your claim is the first signal that the guys either ignorant of just trying the be a smarmy sales guy. How about talking about a race where there is a windward element to it, or light winds encountered for a few days but motoring not allowed. The performance cats are still sailing in 6-8 knots of wind.

Anyway if anyone is silly enough to believe this garbage they shouldn’t be buying a boat in the first place.
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Old 26-03-2023, 11:17   #7
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Are "Performance Cruising Catamarans" safe?

If you leave a comment on his YouTube videos they mysteriously disappear.
On edit: I see he’s part of the Antares sales and marketing team……..no need for discussions I guess.
I have nothing against the Antares catamaran, very well proven, but if your gonna stir the pot get ready to deal with the heat?
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Old 26-03-2023, 11:58   #8
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Re: Are "Performance Cruising Catamarans" safe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franziska View Post
Actually, you could just as well ask if a Ferrari is unsafer than a limousine or SUV.

It's not much unsafer if you are skilled and responsible driver.

Skill is needed when you drive at high speed. Responsibility is factored in when you decide to go fast only on roads where it's safe to do so.

Same for a cat, with the added plus that you can outrun bad weather with the performance boat.

Obviously the higher performance boat requires more skill and responsibility as it's more unforgiving when you do not apply the two.

The problem are not the boats.

The problem is marketing, which makes less skilled and less responsible people think they can drive boats for which they have neither the skills nor the situational awareness required.

How often we do have threads here stating, "I never sailed but in x amount of time I want to sail around the world, how do I proceed". X often equal to 2-3 years or less.
These folks then tend to buy far to big boats because they want all the comforts from home and the performance marketing makes them believe they need to have (which they can't handle because of lack of experience).

Circumnavigations surely can be done carefully and safe. But it requires years of experience to do so safely. People starting threads like the one I mentioned usually don't have that.
one of the most sensible comments i've seen on CF in a long time...

cheers,
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Old 26-03-2023, 11:58   #9
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Re: Are "Performance Cruising Catamarans" safe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smj View Post
If you leave a comment on his YouTube videos they mysteriously disappear.
I believe the comments are moderated and he never accepts them.

I posted this comment:
Your stability chart is wrong. An Outremer 45v2 (your 452) SA is 1162 sqf, it's light displacement is 19179 lbs and fully loaded is 25793 lbs. The Balance 526 lwl is 52.5 ft and the base boat displacement is 27558 lbs, and so on... Please check your numbers, they not even realistic...

Excuse my language, but this guy is a clown...
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Old 26-03-2023, 12:24   #10
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Re: Are "Performance Cruising Catamarans" safe?

As one of the fathers of the “performance catamaran” concept, Rudy Choy, said, “You don’t go to sea to be safe”.
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Old 26-03-2023, 12:41   #11
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Re: Are "Performance Cruising Catamarans" safe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franziska View Post
Actually, you could just as well ask if a Ferrari is unsafer than a limousine or SUV.

It's not much unsafer if you are skilled and responsible driver.

Skill is needed when you drive at high speed. Responsibility is factored in when you decide to go fast only on roads where it's safe to do so.

Same for a cat, with the added plus that you can outrun bad weather with the performance boat.

Obviously the higher performance boat requires more skill and responsibility as it's more unforgiving when you do not apply the two.

The problem are not the boats.

The problem is marketing, which makes less skilled and less responsible people think they can drive boats for which they have neither the skills nor the situational awareness required.

How often we do have threads here stating, "I never sailed but in x amount of time I want to sail around the world, how do I proceed". X often equal to 2-3 years or less.
These folks then tend to buy far to big boats because they want all the comforts from home and the performance marketing makes them believe they need to have (which they can't handle because of lack of experience).

Circumnavigations surely can be done carefully and safe. But it requires years of experience to do so safely. People starting threads like the one I mentioned usually don't have that.
Yes, agree with your comment here, but not one of the threads you refer to about with the dreamers also start with “hey I have a $2M budget for a performance catamaran and an unlimited budget to support my family’s adventures”. They are more along the lines of “hey zero experience, $250k budget, and a $100k cruising kitty that I hope to make last 3 years, can i afford a 45’ catamaran?”
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Old 26-03-2023, 12:53   #12
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Re: Are "Performance Cruising Catamarans" safe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franziska View Post
Actually, you could just as well ask if a Ferrari is unsafer than a limousine or SUV.

It's not much unsafer if you are skilled and responsible driver.

Skill is needed when you drive at high speed. Responsibility is factored in when you decide to go fast only on roads where it's safe to do so.

Same for a cat, with the added plus that you can outrun bad weather with the performance boat.

Obviously the higher performance boat requires more skill and responsibility as it's more unforgiving when you do not apply the two.

The problem are not the boats.

The problem is marketing, which makes less skilled and less responsible people think they can drive boats for which they have neither the skills nor the situational awareness required.

How often we do have threads here stating, "I never sailed but in x amount of time I want to sail around the world, how do I proceed". X often equal to 2-3 years or less.
These folks then tend to buy far to big boats because they want all the comforts from home and the performance marketing makes them believe they need to have (which they can't handle because of lack of experience).

Circumnavigations surely can be done carefully and safe. But it requires years of experience to do so safely. People starting threads like the one I mentioned usually don't have that.


I agree, but in the case of the Chris White 57’catamaran Leopard which capsized with a very experienced crew, there are exceptions. They were hit by a microburst/waterspout while the crew were inside, would a heavier less performance oriented catamaran survive the same scenario?
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Old 26-03-2023, 13:04   #13
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Re: Are "Performance Cruising Catamarans" safe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smj View Post
I agree, but in the case of the Chris White 57’catamaran Leopard which capsized with a very experienced crew, there are exceptions. They were hit by a microburst/waterspout while the crew were inside, would a heavier less performance oriented catamaran survive the same scenario?
I'd say if the beam is the same and the sail area is considerably smaller and has a lower center of effort probably yes.

Maybe the performance boat could have survived with some sort of a fuse in the rigging?
Possibly sacrifice the rigging but stay upright?
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Old 26-03-2023, 13:16   #14
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Re: Are "Performance Cruising Catamarans" safe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franziska View Post
I'd say if the beam is the same and the sail area is considerably smaller and has a lower center of effort probably yes.

Maybe the performance boat could have survived with some sort of a fuse in the rigging?
Possibly sacrifice the rigging but stay upright?


Or possibly having someone on watch in the forward cockpit close to the sheets instead of inside? Maybe the radar could have given notice of the impending doom?
Who knows. I’m sure there are times when a performance cat may have a better chance of capsizing, and times when a heavier minikeeled cat may have a better chance?
Here’s a good article by Shuttleworth https://www.shuttleworthdesign.com/NESTalk.html
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Old 26-03-2023, 13:37   #15
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Re: Are "Performance Cruising Catamarans" safe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smj View Post
I agree, but in the case of the Chris White 57’catamaran Leopard which capsized with a very experienced crew, there are exceptions. They were hit by a microburst/waterspout while the crew were inside, would a heavier less performance oriented catamaran survive the same scenario?
There are also examples out there of catamarans that were not able to sail themselves off a lee shore, or got caught out in weather they shouldn’t have been because they couldn’t get out of the way.

I think the biggest factor in all cases is the diligence and awareness of the crews. It’s easy to armchair quarterback, but with the technology of modern weather routing and communication available the likelihood of these situations happening diminishes. They don’t go to zero though and fatigue is a much bigger component in accidents happening IMO.
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