Alpha 42 Designer's Rebuttal

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by nimblemotors

I would only say that I find his explaination on why there were no tools on board is just the kind of explaination you get when you can just call for rescue and it isn't your boat that is lost. And with insurance to cover it, the owners are not too worried about it either.

Okay, Nimblemotors,

What on earth tools would you have brought??? There's only so much you can carry, and your experience informs what is most likely to be needed. So do you think the skipper should have anticipated rudder failure of the kind they had? What do you suggest delivery skippers routinely supply? drill motor, screws, taps ad dies to install better rudder retainers? Or perhaps clairvoyantly determined extra tools to norm?

Frankly, until you have worked 10 yrs. or more as a delivery skipper, I suggest you don't really understand what they have to cope with, and how they plan for it.

Sorry to sound harsh, but it's only easy being a delivery skipper when the weather cooperates and the water is good.

Ann

[nimblemotors]

I call this very weak excuse. The point made is it is not the delivery skipper's job to have the tools, it is the owners job. Maybe
it is the skipper's job to require the owner to have them,
but oh that is too tough to demand of owners, you know skipper is a tough business, blah blah. Just make sure they have an EPIRB.
Smokejumpers?? How about hiring a fire department.

Look, it isn't my life or my boat, the skipper can correct the builders nonsense, thanks, but the boat was still lost for lack of some tools
is the bottom line.

[quote]
Many new boats are delivered from factories to charter companies and new owners many miles from where they are built. Often the delivery skipper will only have the tools that he brings and little else, as the boat manufacturer does not sell boats with spares and tools. If the skipper is flying to the boat, he will have even fewer tools, unless the owner has authorized him to buy tools, which in many cases is not practical or affordable. Unless you are going to be doing major engine repair, there are not a lot of tools you need.

In this case, if I had foresight, I would have thanked Gregor for recommending that we take a battery-operated saws-all with spare batteries and a 12-pound sledge hammer. That is what we needed to cut away and jettison the bent and useless rudders so we might be able to get some control over the boat. Criticizing the crew for not have enough tools on a new boat is like blaming smokejumpers for arriving on scene with just a shovel and an axe. I did buy a bosun's chair and a few other items for the owner before we left, unknown to Gregor, but then again he did not ask before writing his rebuttal.
[quote]

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by nimblemotors

I call this very weak excuse. The point made is it is not the delivery skipper's job to have the tools, it is the owners job. Maybe
it is the skipper's job to require the owner to have them,
but oh that is too tough to demand of owners, you know skipper is a tough business, blah blah. Just make sure they have an EPIRB.
Smokejumpers?? How about hiring a fire department.

Look, it isn't my life or my boat, the skipper can correct the builders nonsense, thanks, but the boat was still lost for lack of some tools
is the bottom line.

Hmm, I think this is very harsh.

I bet I have easily a quarter ton, maybe a half ton of tools and spare parts on board my boat, including a drill press (kept broken down in the bilge) and a good collection of various power tools, all the hand tools you could practically imagine, and spares for all kinds of contingencies.

I do not however have a sawzall on board -- do you? I have various hacksaws, I have a jigsaw, I have a keyhole saw, I have an angle grinder, but I don't happen to have a sawzall and I bet no one on here does. You can't possibly anticipate every conceivable tool you might ever need in any situation. It takes years to build up a good inventory of tools, and even then, you can't possibly have everything. It is utterly unrealistic to think that anyone could ever possibly have every spare part and every tool needed, much less the knowledge and skill needed, to repair every possible fault at sea.

In my opinion, it is ridiculous to accuse the delivery captain because he didn't happen to bring a sawzall with him.

And we're not just talking about a brand new boat, but also a cat, a small performance cat, to boot, which couldn't possibly carry a full tool inventory, no matter how well prepared you are. My 54' mono is practically a cargo ship in comparison, and even I can't carry everything I might like to have on board.

[colemj]

I have a sawzall on board, but am at a loss to understand how it would have helped me in that situation. Just what would they cut off with it? It won't work underwater. If they wanted to drop the rudders, I don't see any use of it above the water - cutting 2" off the top of the post is meaningless and cutting the rudder tube would have likely sunk the boat.

Mark

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by colemj

I have a sawzall on board, but am at a loss to understand how it would have helped me in that situation. Just what would they cut off with it? It won't work underwater. If they wanted to drop the rudders, I don't see any use of it above the water - cutting 2" off the top of the post is meaningless and cutting the rudder tube would have likely sunk the boat.

Mark

The skipper said he would have needed a sawzall, spare batts, and a 12-pound sledge, to cut the rudders away. I also wondered how he would have done that, but that's what he said.

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

smj:

Thanks for posting this link. Enlightening.

Ann

+1
Yes... very well written...

Originally Posted by Cotemar

It's nice to hear all sides of the story. I still wish she would drift up onto Nantucket, so I could stake a claim. Would be a fun boat to have in its next life......

"There once was a cat in Nantucket... Abandoned due ruddershaft sucketh... she drifted far North for Cotemar of course... And the first thing he fitted was a bucket"

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Okay, Nimblemotors,

What on earth tools would you have brought??? There's only so much you can carry, and your experience informs what is most likely to be needed. So do you think the skipper should have anticipated rudder failure of the kind they had? What do you suggest delivery skippers routinely supply? drill motor, screws, taps ad dies to install better rudder retainers? Or perhaps clairvoyantly determined extra tools to norm?

Frankly, until you have worked 10 yrs. or more as a delivery skipper, I suggest you don't really understand what they have to cope with, and how they plan for it.

Sorry to sound harsh, but it's only easy being a delivery skipper when the weather cooperates and the water is good.

Ann

Ann... If you pay attention to recent threads... The new trend is a bottle jack and pile of floor tiles...

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Hmm, I think this is very harsh.

I bet I have easily a quarter ton, maybe a half ton of tools and spare parts on board my boat, including a drill press (kept broken down in the bilge) and a good collection of various power tools, all the hand tools you could practically imagine, and spares for all kinds of contingencies.

I do not however have a sawzall on board -- do you? I have various hacksaws, I have a jigsaw, I have a keyhole saw, I have an angle grinder, but I don't happen to have a sawzall and I bet no one on here does. You can't possibly anticipate every conceivable tool you might ever need in any situation. It takes years to build up a good inventory of tools, and even then, you can't possibly have everything. It is utterly unrealistic to think that anyone could ever possibly have every spare part and every tool needed, much less the knowledge and skill needed, to repair every possible fault at sea.

In my opinion, it is ridiculous to accuse the delivery captain because he didn't happen to bring a sawzall with him.

And we're not just talking about a brand new boat, but also a cat, a small performance cat, to boot, which couldn't possibly carry a full tool inventory, no matter how well prepared you are. My 54' mono is practically a cargo ship in comparison, and even I can't carry everything I might like to have on board.

Aww... Come On DH! Everybody's doin' it now!....

I have a Sawzall on board... Albeit NOT... a drill press, nor likely 1/2 your SAME spares... And embarrassingly.. no bottle jack or floor tiles either...

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The skipper said he would have needed a sawzall, spare batts, and a 12-pound sledge, to cut the rudders away. I also wondered how he would have done that, but that's what he said.

I think WE ALL wonder how he would have done that...

[minaret]

Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor

+1
Yes... very well written...



"There once was a cat in Nantucket... Abandoned due ruddershaft sucketh... she drifted far North for Cotemar of course... And the first thing he fitted was a bucket"



Ann... If you pay attention to recent threads... The new trend is a bottle jack and pile of floor tiles...



Aww... Come On DH! Everybody's doin' it now!....

I have a Sawzall on board... Albeit NOT... a drill press, nor likely 1/2 your SAME spares... And embarrassingly.. no bottle jack or floor tiles either...



I think WE ALL wonder how he would have done that...

Said it before-Porta Power. Must have tool for me.



Big Red, 4-Ton Porta Power with Carry Case, T70401S at The Home Depot - Tablet



Nice limerick!

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by minaret

Said it before-Porta Power. Must have tool for me.



Big Red, 4-Ton Porta Power with Carry Case, T70401S at The Home Depot - Tablet



Nice limerick!

Ya know... other than having the nice poly case vs the "crap hard dinging corner rustable steel case" on mine... I WONDER why the hell I don't keep mine on the boat... Brilliant min...

(once in a while I hit a dribbler to the corner, when combined with 1 fielding error, 2 throwing errors... gets me across home plate)

[barnakiel]

I am not clear.

What seems clear the boat was of crap quality and should never venture offshore in the first place.

Or was this boat not 'unlimited ocean passages' type?

Whatever the crew and their skills and attitudes, THE BOAT WAS NOT UP TO THIS JOB in the first place.

b.

[Jim Cate]

On the subject of suitability of the boat:

Seems to me that they were in harsh conditions, but not rare conditions... the kind of situation that many (especially less experienced crews) might inadvertently encounter whilst cruising. They were a very experienced crew, with a higher skill level than most. They committed no obvious blunders in their seamanship... perhaps not the optimum responses, but nothing egregiously dangerous or foolhardy.

The steering failed, and in a way that was not readily repairable at sea. This lead to the loss of the boat.

To me, this meets the definition of unsuitable for the purpose of ocean voyaging in the hands of the average cruiser crew.

Apparently much of the boat was well built, and with a redesign of the steering gear it may well become suitable, but this example was not IMO.

It has been interesting to follow the adventure from the various viewpoints presented. To me the skipper comes off with the most credible story... YMMV.

Cheers,

Jim

[beiland]

Originally Posted by smj

ABANDONING BE GOOD TOO: The Skipper Responds to the Builder's Response

I was looking thru this subject thread to see if this had been posted, ...but didn't notice it at my first quick look thru the thread,...because on this forum every posting under the original one is all titled the same, even while it may present a related subject (not the original subject ONLY??

[cwyckham]

Originally Posted by colemj

I have a sawzall on board, but am at a loss to understand how it would have helped me in that situation. Just what would they cut off with it? It won't work underwater. If they wanted to drop the rudders, I don't see any use of it above the water - cutting 2" off the top of the post is meaningless and cutting the rudder tube would have likely sunk the boat.

Mark

I believe the sawzall is to cut a hole in the deck to access the top of the rudder post so you can drive it down and out with a sledge. Maybe also to cut away whatever else would prevent driving it out.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[colemj]

Originally Posted by cwyckham

I believe the sawzall is to cut a hole in the deck to access the top of the rudder post so you can drive it down and out with a sledge. Maybe also to cut away whatever else would prevent driving it out.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Well that makes some sense, but shouldn't there already be a hole and deck plate on deck over the posts for the emergency tiller? That is how ours was built.

Mark

[Cotemar]

Originally Posted by colemj

Well that makes some sense, but shouldn't there already be a hole and deck plate on deck over the posts for the emergency tiller? That is how ours was built.

Mark

Sometimes you can not put a hole in the deck just above the rudder shaft.
We have a ss shaft that sticks out of the engine room to emergency steer with.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tml#post512627

[minaret]

A "hole" in the deck wouldn't help either, unless you had a piece of shaft to strike with the sledge as a punch. You'd have to saw off that whole step, making a massive hole in the boat, to strike the top of the rudder post with a sledge. That's why I suggested a Porta power or small jack. Wedge a scrap of 2x4 under the step/deck to spread load and crank away on the Porta power, even the smallest 4 ton model ought to do it. Less than $100 at any hardware store. Worst case scenario, you tear out the step, and then you can use your sledge!

Plus, a sledge will only get you to the top of the rudder post without a punch of some sort anyhow. The Porta power will drive it all the way out.