After service on a new catamaran

[BigBeakie]

Originally Posted by Catbuyer

I'm trying my best to figure things out but it ain't easy... And I find it hard to believe that almost none owners of outremere don't have any issues compared to what I read regarding catana or are they just on top of things ??? I found alot of things regarding new build catanas

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Have you had a good look throughout the Outremer 51? And I mean look closely at how it is built and the materials used? I spent time going over the boat at Annapolis, in detail, and came away thinking it was by far the best cruising boat, from a quality of build point of view. The only quibble I have is those white silicon join lines which over time will mildew and go dark. Then they don't look so good and some have chosen to dig them out and re siliconed. It is a concession to production boatbuilding to try and keep manhours down, so cost stays within expectations. The price expectations are being driven down by the condomaran manufacturers who have mastered the art of cheap and fast construction, and of hiding the quality build items that are NOT there.

FYI from discussions at Annapolis, a Lagoon 450 is built start to finish in about 2,400 manhours while an Outremer 45 is built in about 7,000 manhours.

Assuming equivalent skill levels of the build team (a BIG assumption), which boat do you reckon would be better built?

FYI, a custom build (45' cat) by a productive, good crew would be in the 10,000 to 15,000 manhours for a flat panel composite boat to very nice finish level of the interior with composite floorboards and furniture, veneer facing.

You pays your money and you takes your chance.

[D&D]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

...a Lagoon 450 is built start to finish in about 2,400 manhours while an Outremer 45 is built in about 7,000 manhours.

Assuming equivalent skill levels of the build team (a BIG assumption), which boat do you reckon would be better built?

FYI, a custom build (45' cat) by a productive, good crew would be in the 10,000 to 15,000 manhours for a flat panel composite boat to very nice finish level of the interior with composite floorboards and furniture, veneer facing.

You pays your money and you takes your chance.

Some interesting figures there.

If, however, 'take your chance' is meant as some logical conclusion and an inference of less safety in the Lagoon, we struggle with that bit.

The sheer numbers of Lagoons sailing happily all around the world are very strong evidence indeed of their safety...and our own experience with >20,000nm including crossing both the Atlantic and the Pacific on our L440, is part of that large pool of evidence.

Then further (and lest we be accused of thread drift!) our experience is also that, on every occasion when we need to service, repair or replace a component in our L440, we found the factory-installed components to be always of high quality from well known manufacturers and typically over-spec'd for their likely use...and with easily-sourced parts and replacements.

We are not blind advocates for Lagoon. We know Lagoon-the-builder can be as awkward and as non-communicative as many other builders. We must, however, give credit where credit is due...and we certainly credit Lagoon as highly efficient builders of cleverly-designed, comfortable and very seaworthy vessels.

[BigBeakie]

Originally Posted by D&D

Some interesting figures there.

If, however, 'take your chance' is meant as some logical conclusion and an inference of less safety in the Lagoon, we struggle with that bit.

The sheer numbers of Lagoons sailing happily all around the world are very strong evidence indeed of their safety...and our own experience with >20,000nm including crossing both the Atlantic and the Pacific on our L440, is part of that large pool of evidence.

Then further (and lest we be accused of thread drift!) our experience is also that, on every occasion when we need to service, repair or replace a component in our L440, we found the factory-installed components to be always of high quality from well known manufacturers and typically over-spec'd for their likely use...and with easily-sourced parts and replacements.

We are not blind advocates for Lagoon. We know Lagoon-the-builder can be as awkward and as non-communicative as many other builders. We must, however, give credit where credit is due...and we certainly credit Lagoon as highly efficient builders of cleverly-designed, comfortable and very seaworthy vessels.

D&D,

No, it was not meant as a blanket condemnation of Lagoon as a brand. In a way, I admire the production efficiency that they have achieved during the many, many years they have been producing boats. They are probably the least expensive cats available, and many people are out there because of it, and that is a good thing. But it is only reasonable to wonder how they can build in the strength with those build techniques. Here's why.

Lets take a specific example of bulkheads. Call me old fashioned, but from speaking with many boat builders of multihulls and several multihull designers, I have yet to hear that there is a better way to install structural bulkheads in a cat than full length, high density, correct radius fillets and then fiber-glassing the bulkhead to the surrounding hull structure with sufficient woven or stitched cloth, properly overlapped, so the load path on the bulkhead is distributed. It just works. But it takes more time than plonking the bulkhead into a channel than has had a bed of Plexus squeezed into it. Now, Plexus is wonderful stuff as long as it is used appropriately and real care is taken by the builders.

However here are some photos from a yard in Australia of a repair job on a Lagoon 380 bulkhead after the boat had sailed in a few days of cross seas and had wave impacts on the side of the boat. Not survival conditions mind you, just some rough bluewater conditions after a blow. You be the judge.

The first photo shows a complete failure of the main structural bulkhead, the mast bulkhead, that was split completely across from top to bottom. The next photo shows the complete bonding failure of the Plexus that was used to "stick" the bulkhead in place. So the bonding of the main structural component of the boat had completely failed !!

Notice also that the Plexus has been glued to the veneer of the bulkhead, in contravention of the materials use data sheet instructions. Plexus is not to be used to bond anything other than fresh fiberglass and metal, fron what I can see and have been told.

Additionally, almost every bulkhead corner was severely cracked at the doorway SQUARE corners!!!

Additionally, the workers reported that they could just tear out the furniture construction with their bare hands, it was so weakly constructed.

Additionally there was hull-deck bonding failure resulting in seawater flowing into the boat.

Any one of these examples would give me pause to ask if the boat was seaworthy, but taken together, I dunno, what would you call it?

Maybe this was a one off, but personally, I doubt it. It is cost cutting, cutting corners, reducing labour, to the point where it matters. But that's just if the boat is going to be sailed in adverse conditions, I guess.

Interestingly, the owner of this Lagoon apparently had no idea this structural damage was there until the survey of the hull-deck join issue.

So, I'm just saying this, and other amazing Lagoon stories, makes me wonder about other boats that "look OK".

[brianlara 3]

Earlier in my life I was a Mercedes Benz service manager in Sydney OZ. Very experienced with regards to quality. Merc, Bmw, are seriously good cars. Seriously good too are Purgeot, Honda and so many others.
But ALL of these others, in so many ways, are only 98% as good as the top echelon cars.
And so it is too with shirts, boats and baby formula.
Impossible to get a Merc quality boat for the price of a Honda quality boat.
D & D, that other poster wasn't criticizing the safety of Lagoons in any way. But you inserted safety into your defense when no safety compromises were implied.
Lagoon safety and all other facets re value and suitability for blue water passage making obviously are exemplary. We're that not the case, with such a vast number of Lagoons safely crossing oceans, the internet would be FULL of Lagoon failure and massive litigation suits.
He was merely saying don't complain if the leather binding on your steering wheel starts to peel in five years. And I've don't know that other poster from Adam.
And in anticipation of needing to defend this comment, just because I drive a v/small yacht doesn't mean that I'm brainless or an abject failure. But a war veteran with PTSD...."guilty as charged y'r honour".
May the Gods of peace and safety be your constant companions D&D....from the heart.
(hoping I don't get banned for this) Brian.

[TOT]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

D&D,



No, it was not meant as a blanket condemnation of Lagoon as a brand. In a way, I admire the production efficiency that they have achieved during the many, many years they have been producing boats. They are probably the least expensive cats available, and many people are out there because of it, and that is a good thing. But it is only reasonable to wonder how they can build in the strength with those build techniques. Here's why.



Lets take a specific example of bulkheads. Call me old fashioned, but from speaking with many boat builders of multihulls and several multihull designers, I have yet to hear that there is a better way to install structural bulkheads in a cat than full length, high density, correct radius fillets and then fiber-glassing the bulkhead to the surrounding hull structure with sufficient woven or stitched cloth, properly overlapped, so the load path on the bulkhead is distributed. It just works. But it takes more time than plonking the bulkhead into a channel than has had a bed of Plexus squeezed into it. Now, Plexus is wonderful stuff as long as it is used appropriately and real care is taken by the builders.



However here are some photos from a yard in Australia of a repair job on a Lagoon 380 bulkhead after the boat had sailed in a few days of cross seas and had wave impacts on the side of the boat. Not survival conditions mind you, just some rough bluewater conditions after a blow. You be the judge.



The first photo shows a complete failure of the main structural bulkhead, the mast bulkhead, that was split completely across from top to bottom. The next photo shows the complete bonding failure of the Plexus that was used to "stick" the bulkhead in place. So the bonding of the main structural component of the boat had completely failed !!



Notice also that the Plexus has been glued to the veneer of the bulkhead, in contravention of the materials use data sheet instructions. Plexus is not to be used to bond anything other than fresh fiberglass and metal, fron what I can see and have been told.



Additionally, almost every bulkhead corner was severely cracked at the doorway SQUARE corners!!!



Additionally, the workers reported that they could just tear out the furniture construction with their bare hands, it was so weakly constructed.



Additionally there was hull-deck bonding failure resulting in seawater flowing into the boat.



Any one of these examples would give me pause to ask if the boat was seaworthy, but taken together, I dunno, what would you call it?



Maybe this was a one off, but personally, I doubt it. It is cost cutting, cutting corners, reducing labour, to the point where it matters. But that's just if the boat is going to be sailed in adverse conditions, I guess.



Interestingly, the owner of this Lagoon apparently had no idea this structural damage was there until the survey of the hull-deck join issue.



So, I'm just saying this, and other amazing Lagoon stories, makes me wonder about other boats that "look OK".

I own a Lagoon and have found the boat and the company to be nothing but very helpful and professional.

Buy a Lagoon and then comment!


SV TOT
Wayne 😃

[Catbuyer]

Hmm seems this is going in the wrong direction ... So let me try once more ... After service of outremere And I yacht plus alibi .... I'm very well aware or nautitech and lagoon plus FP but these boats are from our view point much more focus on cruising than semi racing ... We are looking at these boats partly for living and also with the option to do some racing.. I'm aware that is was a lagoon 380 who won the arc+ on corrected time but basically we just wanna go fast with comfort ...

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[Steamer]

Originally Posted by Catbuyer

Hmm seems this is going in the wrong direction ... So let me try once more ... After service of outremere

Sorry, Catbuyer, we will then need to understand what do You mean by AFTER SERVICE.

[Catbuyer]

When you get a new boat delivered it seems like there are lots of issues on Catana cats eg. Miss catana or lazy Jack plus a Russian owner boat "can't remember" the name of the boat ... But I have not been able to find any commets regarding the after sales service from O yachts and outreemere and I find it hard to believe that these boats are in mint condition each time a new is launched but of they fixed the issues with out a long drag I will be happy because this means for me they care about there owners and want to make sure they get what they pay for ...

Sent from my HTC One using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[D&D]

Originally Posted by brianlara 3

Earlier in my life I was a Mercedes Benz service manager in Sydney OZ. Very experienced with regards to quality. Merc, Bmw, are seriously good cars. Seriously good too are Purgeot, Honda and so many others.
But ALL of these others, in so many ways, are only 98% as good as the top echelon cars.
And so it is too with shirts, boats and baby formula.
Impossible to get a Merc quality boat for the price of a Honda quality boat.
D & D, that other poster wasn't criticizing the safety of Lagoons in any way. But you inserted safety into your defense when no safety compromises were implied.
Lagoon safety and all other facets re value and suitability for blue water passage making obviously are exemplary. We're that not the case, with such a vast number of Lagoons safely crossing oceans, the internet would be FULL of Lagoon failure and massive litigation suits.
He was merely saying don't complain if the leather binding on your steering wheel starts to peel in five years. And I've don't know that other poster from Adam.
And in anticipation of needing to defend this comment, just because I drive a v/small yacht doesn't mean that I'm brainless or an abject failure. But a war veteran with PTSD...."guilty as charged y'r honour".
May the Gods of peace and safety be your constant companions D&D....from the heart.
(hoping I don't get banned for this) Brian.

Love your work Brian...and your 'handle'!

May we never criticize such well intended and well put remarks. We join you in hoping you (or we!?) don't get banned.

As for Big Beakie and our response to him/her, we did preface the safety remarks by saying "If... 'take your chance' is meant as some logical conclusion and an inference of less safety in the Lagoon, we struggle with that bit."

Now considering BB's further reply, it seems quite clear that he/she is very much speaking about safety on Lagoons, e.g. "complete failure of the main structural bulkhead...almost every bulkhead corner was severely cracked...hull-deck bonding failure resulting in seawater flowing into the boat...[and last, but certainly not least] Any one of these examples would give me pause to ask if the boat was seaworthy. Maybe this was a one off, but personally, I doubt it. "

So with the greatest respect to you, Brian, we're thinking we were actually 'spot on' in calling BB out for alleging Lagoons are not seaworthy.

We do not, however, want to go on with this. It's both grievous thread drift and we don't want to put ourselves in the position of Lagoon defenders. We know builders (ALL builders) make mistakes...and there are literally thousands of Lagoons out there around the world. We love our vessel and we have proven her seaworthiness on many occassions, but we know there are lots of other great vessels out there too. We tried to conclude our original post with comments relevant to this thread, but BB appeared (and still appears) to need to attack Lagoons...in spite of starting his/her remarks by saying otherwise.

Brian, your comments were a great summary of an issue that needs to be finished here...thank you. Wishing you fair winds!

[brianlara 3]

D&D. I'm pretty new at this CF posting game but over the last six years, as a mere CF reader, a constantly notice few things standing out.
viz:
Personal agendas
Flippant, irrelevant comments.
Shockingly irresponsible opinions
and lastly,
thread drift....yep, guilty as I speak, but now fini!
Appreciate your support.
Brian (hopeless cricketer).