200nm/day - What's it Really Take???

[sailstoo]

Breeze and a 50' waterline

[fxykty]

A 20 foot beach cat and two determined Italians (actually, a father and son). They recently set a new Atlantic Dakar to Guadeloupe record, sailing 2500 miles in 11 days at an average just over 9 knots. [URL]https://sailuniverse.com/2017/04/the-legendary-duo-vittorio-and-nico-malingri-break-the-dakar-guadalupe-atlantic-crossing-record-with-their-6-meter-long-catamaran/[\URL]

[cliffdykes]

Originally Posted by jbinbi

Stock lagoon 380. 7.3kts in 12 true, 15 apparent at 50 deg. If I can fall off to 60, I am close to 8. If you can give me 15 true at 60 deg, I am at 8+. Great sailing condomaran .Attachment 153337

Sorry but I'm not finding these "Look at me doing x knots in my y boat" pictures very useful in answering the OP's question.

Yes, I've done over 13 knots in the Lagoon 410 I had, between St Barts and St Martin. Had the spinnaker up and was hit by a rain squall. I wouldn't recommend it. Could easily do 8-10 knots on a broad reach on a regular basis. Doesn't mean I ever did 200 miles in a day in that boat.

Hit 14.7 knots in a Leopard 48 on a 7500 mile delivery trip, again with a spinnaker up. Definitely wouldn't recommend that, and never did a 200 mile day in that boat either.

Just sayin'

Cheers
Cliff

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by cliffdykes

Sorry but I'm not finding these "Look at me doing x knots in my y boat" pictures very useful in answering the OP's question.

Yes, I've done over 13 knots in the Lagoon 410 I had, between St Barts and St Martin. Had the spinnaker up and was hit by a rain squall. I wouldn't recommend it. Could easily do 8-10 knots on a broad reach on a regular basis. Doesn't mean I ever did 200 miles in a day in that boat.

Hit 14.7 knots in a Leopard 48 on a 7500 mile delivery trip, again with a spinnaker up. Definitely wouldn't recommend that, and never did a 200 mile day in that boat either.

Just sayin'

Cheers
Cliff

hope you don't find this offensive but :

delivery skipper does not know the boat to the same level as owner of many years, and will not be able to use boat as efficiently, especially if learnewd sailing on monos.

So, your experience is not really credible enough to say L38 will not cut it. See that guy CF name dyango with L 38 that sailed ARC and maintained over 7 kn average speed for many 1000 of miles all the way to AUS when circumvigating.

[s/v Jedi]

Okay, let me add the Sundeer side to this subject. We have a 64' waterline and the only thing we need for a 200nm day is a 15+kts wind. This is easy as in the boat on autopilot tending to herself with us doing some navigation, fishing, chilling out etc. For a 250nm day we have to work and that breeze needs to stay above 15kts average all the time. The Sundeer record is at 384nm IIRC but this was during a storm on the North Atlantic.

Below 15kts is gets hard for both mono and multi because the seas start to slow you down for all but downwind passages.

My conclusion: in a cruising scenario you need a minimum of 15kts stable wind as well as a lwl of well above 50' for a mono. In these conditions, we find that 50' cats match our performance so probably 45' or longer cats shouldn't have trouble with 200nm days in these conditions.

If a crew considers cruising as working the sails and doing course corrections with windshifts etc. then shorter boats can do this as well.

When the wind goes above 25kts we need to slow down for upwind passages and don't make 200nm. By this time catamarans have dropped out because of the high seas on the nose. We still make 150-175nm days at a 50 degree true wind angle and give up above 35kts true wind speed because of comfort reasons. We tend to just select another landfall destination on a course that provides the comfort level we like. Often we can switch back to the original destination as weather improves again. I guess I want to say that I think it's better to go with the flow when cruising.

[Seafarer24]

40'-50' Proa could average 8.5 on autopilot pretty easily with 15 knot following winds. Would probably have to reef the sails or overload the boat to slow it down that much.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by cliffdykes

Sorry but I'm not finding these "Look at me doing x knots in my y boat" pictures very useful

Cheers
Cliff

But you somehow think video of a boat doing an effortless 9 knots in 10 - 11 knots breeze in complete comfort proves that any speed over 8 is uncomfortable.....

[donradcliffe]

I'm in the Jedi camp--no substitute for long waterline light boats. I just brought Merlin--the original fast is fun boat-- back from the Transpac--2500 miles in 12.8 days. It is definitely not a cruising boat, but it doesn't take much sail area or wind to do a 200 mile day. For the delivery I was using a mainsail which was about 40% of the size of the racing main, and had an S curve to it. The foresail was an old #4 which is about 70% of J and 75% of the luff. It was mostly to weather, and when it blew over 20 I reefed down, put a storm jib up, and cracked off to 35 AWA to preserve the boat and crew.

I think my best day was about 240 miles reaching in 10-11 knots, and the slowest was about 170 under a sick motor and 4 knots of wind from dead aft. The race crew AVERAGED 275 miles per day, but they got to use the racing sails and only had to go upwind about 25 miles.

I disagree with Dockhead about going faster means being more comfortable--on any boat and any point of sail the higher the speed, the more violent the motion. We would feather the boat up and slow it down to 5k to cook dinner, and it made an amazing improvement in the ride.

Delivering boats is like cruising--the objective is not to go as fast as possible, its to get the boat and crew there in one piece--but its safer and easier to slow a fast boat down than to speed a slow boat up.

[UNCIVILIZED]

You do need to consider that Merlin was optimized for downwind work, which she does extaordinarily well. But going to windward wasn't one of her primary design considerations, at all. And there are boats which are all around performers that are comfortable on any point of sail at well over 10kts, multi & mono.

For example on one delivery of a big Swan. An old school design from the early 80's. Where for the better part of a day (& night) it was blowing low to mid 20's. I was helming, doing 10-12kts upwind, with a full main & the #3. And the motion was as gentle as anything I've ever sailed, probably the best ride ever, upwind. Yet she was no problem for me to handle on deck by myself. And downwind, crewed, we beat most everything that we raced against when I was onboard.
But obviously she was a much "bigger" boat than Merlin, despite being the same LOA.

The only times I was uncomfortable with her speed was when we had kites up in 40kts TWS, & were surfing down 25-40' waves fast enough so that we were plowing into the bottoms of them from time to time. Mostly when they were the types of waves with little to no backside, & thus no way to avoid going down the mine.
Which, after a while, you get used to broaches. It's the cleaning up the mess from Chinese gybes that gets old.

Honestly though, the adrenaline, friendships, & memories made it all more than worth it. As did the post race festivities

[rob denney]

Originally Posted by Seafarer24

40'-50' Proa could average 8.5 on autopilot pretty easily with 15 knot following winds. Would probably have to reef the sails or overload the boat to slow it down that much.

50' harryproa doing an easy 10 knots in 10 knots of breeze, then (at 5:16) 15 knots in 15 breeze

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR...877B8994035140

Attached is the gps log of a 60' harryproa cruising in 18-20 knots of breeze. ~13 knots average, 17 knots peak. This was broad reaching in flat water, it would have been quicker with waves. Video and description are at Custom 18m – AUSTRALIA – Harryproa scroll down to Sept 2015

The obvious answer to 200 nm days is waterline, low weight and a decent breeze. And this will certainly do the trick in daylight with the crew awake and ready to shorten sail if needed.

But to continue at speed through the night on a multihull, without qualms and only one person on watch, more is required.

The key requirement is a rig that can be easily and safely depowered. ie, one that does not have stays to prevent easing the sail in a squall, or headsails that flog when the sheet is released. If a squall hits, it is imperative that the sheet can be dumped, the rig weathercocks and the boat drifts until the squall passes or a reef is put in. Until then, it should be possible to sheet on and apply just as much power is required. This can only be achieved with an unstayed rig.

Other requirements for a good nights sleep at speed are rudders/daggerboards that kick up in a collision and bows that can withstand impacts with or ride over floating objects.

[rob denney]

oops, gps plot won't attach.
See 1:07 into this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fsx...ature=youtu.be

[Joli]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

You do need to consider that Merlin was optimized for downwind work, which she does extaordinarily well. But going to windward wasn't one of her primary design considerations, at all. And there are boats which are all around performers that are comfortable on any point of sail at well over 10kts, multi & mono.

For example on one delivery of a big Swan. An old school design from the early 80's. Where for the better part of a day (& night) it was blowing low to mid 20's. I was helming, doing 10-12kts upwind, with a full main & the #3. And the motion was as gentle as anything I've ever sailed, probably the best ride ever, upwind. Yet she was no problem for me to handle on deck by myself. And downwind, crewed, we beat most everything that we raced against when I was onboard.
But obviously she was a much "bigger" boat than Merlin, despite being the same LOA.

The only times I was uncomfortable with her speed was when we had kites up in 40kts TWS, & were surfing down 25-40' waves fast enough so that we were plowing into the bottoms of them from time to time. Mostly when they were the types of waves with little to no backside, & thus no way to avoid going down the mine.
Which, after a while, you get used to broaches. It's the cleaning up the mess from Chinese gybes that gets old.

Honestly though, the adrenaline, friendships, & memories made it all more than worth it. As did the post race festivities

That's the thing, the older well rounded boats are a fair bit quicker on all points of sail then many realize. But they don't plane downwind so some assume they are slow and they can be a handful if pressed downwind in a breeze. Planing boats now own the racing scene but not many cruisers want to sail a planing boat or want to keep a boat light enough if it can plane, cruising gear is heavy.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Joli

That's the thing, the older well rounded boats are a fair bit quicker on all points of sail then many realize. But they don't plane downwind so some assume they are slow and they can be a handful if pressed downwind in a breeze. Planing boats now own the racing scene but not many cruisers want to sail a planing boat or want to keep a boat light enough if it can plane, cruising gear is heavy.

A lot of said designs won't plane, like a modern J-boat per say, but they will surf, & do so quite well. Though, yes, it does take a more experienced helmsman & crew to do so with them. But the fact that we routinely flew (& still fly) kites on boats like that in 40kts true, says that they're controllable. And I've been onboard in such conditions where the speedo was pegged hard (at the 25kt pin), & when surfing down a wave, with the kite pinned back against the rigging for a moment or two. And you can do the boatspeed math on that one.

Not that cruisers want to sail like this, or want boats that are this big (& expensive to "feed"). But there are a lot of boat choices out there who's speed is understated. And much of it is a question of sail inventory, & whether or not you want to push the boat. Since on many of them, surfing downwind @ 12kts with the kite up is a fairly low stress event. But... do you want to put up the kite in 20-25kts true?

Hell, my first multihull experience was on a Searunner was a delivery, bringing her back from SF to San Diego, with her new owner. Who was a good friend of mine. It took us 2 1/2 days. And for a good 1 1/2 days of it we never saw less than 11kts-12kts, & quite often 1.5x that, even with 2 reefs in & a 135% up, with the wind & waves off our stern.
Admittedly the boat was empty, but... that's still fairly fast. And her only shortfall was being sluggish in sub 7-8kt winds.

Even the venerable Cal 40 can crank out some impressive downwind speeds, & 24hr runs.
https://www.facebook.com/andrew.nels.../794377693830/

[donradcliffe]

The 'new' Merlin is way better upwind than the original version. The 4th keel has the same weight, twice the righting moment, and less than half the cross sectional area of the original. I'm still getting the polars sorted, but here's a couple of Expedition data points from the upwind section of the Transpac.

A 5 minute average, just after the start with the J1-- True Wind Speed 8 knots
Apparent Wind Angle 19.5 deg
True Wind Angle 40.8 degrees
Boat speed 9.2 knots

a 13 minute average a little after Catalina with the J3-- True wind speed 17.8 knots
Apparent wind angle 23
True wind angle 36.8
Boat speed 10.6 knots

Not too shabby for a 40 year old boat, but the three hot Tris and Commanche were over the horizon by the second data point.

[cliffdykes]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

But you somehow think video of a boat doing an effortless 9 knots in 10 - 11 knots breeze in complete comfort proves that any speed over 8 is uncomfortable.....

That is not actually what I said at all. But go on believing it if you wish.

Cheers
Cliff