200nm/day - What's it Really Take???

[UNCIVILIZED]

Okay, here's the question. Given average winds, not continuous 20kts+ trades, what does it take to average 200nm per day? In terms of boat size, style, sail inventory, & crew work level. Obviously it's easier to accomplish on a big boat, with lots of energetic crew, & a quiver of sails having great depth. But for the rest of us, what's the bottom line? And doing 200nm per day needn't be your norm or average. But rather numbers that you see semi regularly.
Oh, & this of course includes having your normal cruising gear loadout onboard when doing it.

[Jd1]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Given average winds, not continuous 20kts+ trades, what does it take to average 200nm per day?

An engine .....

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Jd1

An engine .....

Thanks, smart azz. Kinda' defeats the purpose of having a SAILboat.

[Seaslug Caravan]

WIND .



It all depends where you intend to sail.

the average wind speed for a majority of the Australian coast is less than 12 knots for a lot of the year, so a really big engine will be most useful.

See Australian Climate Averages - Average wind velocity.

Note the units is km/h.

The 48 foot Roam recently completed a Tasman crossing at around 6 knots or less ?? from memory.

So a REALLY BIG BOAT would also help.

[jdazey]

Given Jd1's boat, he's probably right.

But you posted in the multihull forum, and it's a good question that comes up fairly often.

For a 200nm day, you need to average 8.5 kts. For us that means winds of 15kts for most of the day. Much less than that for very long and we won't get our numbers. Having said that, Presto sails very nicely at 14-15kts in the ocean with 25kts apparent.

IMHO it also requires that the crew be good sailors willing to pay attention to sail trim, especially in lighter air conditions. Based on our race results so far, I think we qualify. We're new to the boat and still learning what it likes.

Our boat has three sails: main, 110% jib, and assym, no quiver of options here. I'd love to add some sails, but the way our boat is rigged, it won't happen.

Our crew, two 70+ yo seniors, is fit, but "energetic" may be stretching it On longer passages, more than a week, adequate food and rest will help. So will a good autopilot. In fact we're investing a bundle in an autopilot with just that in mind.

And as been stated many times, a multihull needs to be kept light. Our boat sails a lot better since we unloaded a ton of "stuff" that came with the purchase. The previous two owners never threw anything away

Anyway, here's our formula with which we hope to see the occasional 200nm day:
1. Fit and capable crew
2. Light weight
3. Attention to trim
4. Long waterline, slim hulls
5. Hope for 15+kts but not 40kts
6. Get adequate rest and nutrition

Cheers,

[Jd1]

LOL ..... so don't ask for 200 nm on average (or frequent). Sure it's possible on occasion when you've done the wind dance just right, the moon is in the right phase and you were dreaming about crickets .... but those things don't happen too often.
I suppose something in the 60 to 65 ft range might do it more often than not but if you are a mere mortal cruising, be happy if you get the occasional day to 200 nm. I am happy with an average 5 knots, you are asking for 8.34.
OK, I should stipulate I am thinking MONO here. A CAT could probably do it pretty darn easy.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Jd1

An engine .....

Damn few midsize cruising boats that can maintain an 8.5 knot average under power. Not many more that will do it under sail.

[Jim Cate]

Well, we've only done one full 24 hour 200+ day... between Havanah pass New Cal and Pt Vila Vanuatu. It was close reaching, AWA around 60 deg in normal trades of 20 kts +/-. Ticked over the 24 hour mark and promptly reefed down a bit, 'cause it was kinda uncomfortable in the extant sea state, flying off wave tops and banging down. This was with just Ann and I aboard (as usual) flying the Solent jib and full mainsail. AP steering the whole time, staying pretty close to the rhumb line. The boat was pretty new to us at the time, and we were "giving her her head" to see what happened. So, what happened is that t was a lot of work and some discomfort, bigger heel angles than we normally carried and more attention to trim than usual, although conditions were pretty stable. We were carrying full tanks (800L water, ~600 L of diesel) and all our accumulated cruising crap, including a big RIB and 15 hp o/b. We now know that this load makes a significant dent in performance! But, we wanted to do it for a reference point... had never approached that speed in our previous boat. BTW, that was distance through the water as measured by a fairly well calibrated log. We've done a lot more miles over the bottom in a day coming down the east coast with the East Australia current adding two + knots to our SOG

Downwind in the trades we could do a bit better if we persisted for a full day, but have never done that. Requires much more crew attention and with just two up we tend to not drive the boat that hard for long periods. Our downwind rig is main and poled out genoa, with the Solent added in lighter airs and 150-110 deg AWA. As it is, we had one passage from Santo to Gladstone where we averaged 180 mpd for the whole passage, and that was pretty nice sailing... just consistent 20 - 25 knot SE trades every day, with a reef in the main and occasionally rolling up a bit of genoa.

There are plenty of cruisers who think worrying about performance is silly, and to some degree I agree with them. Driving the boat hard at sea is more work for us, makes sleep for the off watch more difficult and can be hard on the boat, especially if fatigue should lead to errors of judgement! On the other hand, there are times when it is ver useful to get somewhere fast. For instance, we were surprised by the formation of cyclone Xavier in early October one year. We were anchored near Santo in Vanuatu, and the best cyclone anchorage (Port Sandwich) lies around 70 miles to the SSE... dead upwind in strong trades. The storm was f/c to track directly over Santo, so we did the hard miles to windward as fast as we could, happy that we were in a boat with good windward performance, and that we knew how to achieve that performance. (Xavier changed his mind and eventually missed VAnuatu pretty much, but the lesson was still there!)

Please excuse the rambling, and back to your questions: I don't understand exactly what you mean by "average winds, not 20 knot trades", for in many cruising grounds,those trades are indeed the average winds. If you mean much lighter winds, say 10 kts average, we certainly can't do 200 mpd downwind, and not likely at an optimum wind angle. DAmn few boats that could reasonably be called cruisers could do those miles... maybe one of pollux's Pogo types can... he seems to think so!

So, I'll shut up, and maybe you can refine your question a bit.

Jim

[buzzstar]

Since 8.34 knots exceeds my theoretical and practical hull speed, step one would be a larger boat, at least if I sail.

[arsenelupiga]

For our cruising boat loaded for 2 full time cruising, averaging 8.5 kn with help of big sails means:

around 12 kn wind true required and not too bad seas reaching and knot or so more wind towards downwind.

I would not do that unless critical, like escaping weather pattern or other emergency, as do not like to be alert for long periods and do not want to push the boat.

[Snowpetrel]

I can't answer for multihulls but for mono's it either takes some full on surfing/planing or a waterline length somewhere near 45 foot and perfect steady conditions with a pretty flat sea, low swell. Most of the time its reported I suspect half a knot (or more)of current is involved, which makes a big difference. I work on about squareroot Lwlx1.2 x 24 hours is a pretty realistic maximum days run on your average loaded monohull without unreasonably pushing the boat. That works out to be a lwl of around 50 feet.

[a64pilot]

I'm not trying to be cute, really I'm not, but I averaged 10+ kts all the way from Miami to Stuart.
However the 4 kt Gulf Stream didn't hurt [emoji3]

[UNCIVILIZED]

My statement about not filling the thread with tales based on 25kt trade wind conditions was that in such conditions, 24/7, it's not tough to crank out high mileage days. Even in what are rellatively slow boats otherwise. But that when it's blowing 10-15kts racking up high daily numbers is another matter entirely.

So I'm wondering what sort of mileage mid-sized multi's, the non floating condo types, make in such conditions. And what sort of efforts it takes in order to achieve them. Particularly as even amongst those who have them, it seems uncommon for cruisers to break out spinnakers & other light air sails, for anything but short hops, or out of desperation due to drifting conditions in say, the horse latitudes.

Yes, I get that sailing short-handed is anywhere from wearing to exhausting at times. But for me anyway, seeing the speedo in the 2-digit ranges for extended periods is one of those things which makes sailing worth the effort. Ergo my query as to folks experiences with keeping their boats continually performing at said level(s).


Also, as to rolling off high noon to noon runs, what are your favorite, & or indespensible sails? And or, combinations there of?
What sails have you tried that sounded good in theory, but were more myth (or labor) than reality in terms of actual returns?
How would you rate bottom cleanlyness vs. the boat being kept svelte in terms of mileage returns? And how smooth is your bottom?
Are fixed foils that big of a drag? Including, if sailing off of the wind, how much difference do you notice if you sail with boards down vs. up, if such is an option for you? And do you ever go so far as to retract one rudder?
What about the drag as relates to; props with fixed shafts, vs. sail drives, vs. retracted outboards?

And no, I won't ask about shifting water/fluid ballast, or "the stack" on deck (of all of your sails, as moveable ballast, such as on VOR boats). Though you're welcome to share such info.

[Catmandu]

I found that a clean bottom could add 1+ kts.

Flex-o-fold props add 1 kt.

In light airs esp. when the wind is off the beam (130+ apparent) we found that adding one motor at 1,600-1,900 rpm was enough to pull the apparent wind forward causing the sails to begin drawing ... if we could pull the wind far enough forward to say 60 apparent we could get the boat to 9-10 kts motor sailing on one engine in 4-5 kts true. ... so engine does occasionally help.

[Factor]

A good sailing boat, not a block of flats