Why are metal boats popular among seasoned cruisers?

[hellosailor]

Steel or aluminum (what, you can't afford a titanium boat?!) are both often said to be cost effective once the OAL gets around 40 feet. So, that's something like 2? 3? percent of the market. Metals also have the problems of galvanic corrosion. Early aluminum hulls (the alloys have changed) could literally be holed by a penny left in the bilge. And steel rusts like mad unless the interior is sealed and kept dry as well. So the extra expenses of insulation and protection become more important, and the owner had better understand galvanic corrosion.
That means low budget or entry level cruisers won't be able to afford metal hulls, or understand how to care for them.
On the flip side, metal boats will get bent--but not broken--during a collision or grounding. As with anything else, there's only so much of the consumer "mass market" that needs or appreciates, or is willing to pay for, the high end stuff.

[Gaia]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Steel or aluminum (what, you can't afford a titanium boat?!) are both often said to be cost effective once the OAL gets around 40 feet. So, that's something like 2? 3? percent of the market. Metals also have the problems of galvanic corrosion. Early aluminum hulls (the alloys have changed) could literally be holed by a penny left in the bilge. And steel rusts like mad unless the interior is sealed and kept dry as well. So the extra expenses of insulation and protection become more important, and the owner had better understand galvanic corrosion.
That means low budget or entry level cruisers won't be able to afford metal hulls, or understand how to care for them.
On the flip side, metal boats will get bent--but not broken--during a collision or grounding. As with anything else, there's only so much of the consumer "mass market" that needs or appreciates, or is willing to pay for, the high end stuff.

I continue to be amazed by what I read in the replies to this post. Like in the above replies: 97 or 98 % of cruising boats are under 40 ft?? Well perhaps coastal but certainly not off shore anymore.

And "Steel rusts like mad"? Yes, just like teredo worms gobble up untreated wood. What a strange argument. "Unless interior is sealed". Like a steel car, and they are all steel, is painted I assume.

And low budget ( whatever that means) and entry level cruisers are too dumb to understand that painting protects steel? Or to understand galvanic corrosion? (Perhaps it was said in jest and I missed the joke)

And on other replies I read how you have to have a light boat to escape bad weather since steel is so slow. Nonsense! Well maybe F1 cars are faster than 'normal cars' in part because they are made of carbon fibre reinforced plastic but that does not mean that your average plastic cruising boat is faster than a steel boat above 40 ft.

Jeez, got my dander up once more. Wonder what the Dutch steel boat industry would think of the replies on this post. Not much me thinks.

Jim

[TJ D]

Ah Jim, it's the internet. Plenty of stuff out there that's not going to agree with your point of view.

Steel's fine, and it can be made into a relatively fast boat, too.

I own one of those carbon fiber creations you mention, with a D/L of 72 and a SA/D of around 30. That's awfully hard to achieve in steel. Aluminum too, for that matter.

And, while it's true that steel doesn't rust like mad if it's taken care of properly, your middle of the road steel hull still isn't as easy to take care of as a GRP boat. It's just not. Maybe if the boat was builit with 20 coats of primer, never gets any water in the bilge, and never has any stray current issues, there's nothing that can go wrong, but in real life-water does get into the bilge, paints fail, and rust starts.

And- the rust, not the superficial stuff, but the nasty, bilge eating stuff occurs in parts of the boat that are often very hard to access to re-coat.

None of this is disparaging to steel. I like the material enough that I bought a steel boat, and am actually currently at sea on a steel boat. But, glossing over the maintenance headaches that CAN happen doesn't help anybody either. I've certainly spent my fair share of time priming and painting my bilge during my tenure as a steel boat owner! (it was supposed to be dry, but never truly was.

To the 'ditching' thing- what I meant was that if I were to own steel again, it would be for a very specific, limited objective, and I would probably have an extremely simple interior setup-just a shell with some pipe berths and a single burner cooker. Not a cruising boat, but just a tool to get the job done. Job done-ditch (sell, if you prefer) tool.

Have a fine evening, friend.

[Snowpetrel]

Modern paint systems make steel pretty low maintenance. There is really no reason a modern steel boat properly prepared, (sandblasted and epoxy painted inside and out) to have minimal problems.

Most of the horror stories are from boats that were never properly painted inside in the first place.

I went for alloy because of the strength to weight, not because of the problems looking after a steel boat.

My worst boat maintenance wise was the fibreglass one which had constant issues with mild pox every time I slipped her.

The YW article on lost keels refered to fabricated steel keels being the worst. They didn't do a good job of explaining the root causes. This was due to the high number of recent failures of high aspect bulb keels with a very narrow welded steel fin/strut attached to a (typically) light foam core hull. Forged steel foils are more reliable in this case but are much more expensive.

Steel skegs have been known to give issues if they are just welded onto the skin, they need proper internal structure. This is a common failing of some of the late 80'/90's designs.

[Fore and Aft]

Jim I think the biggest issue with steel yachts is that neglect damages them more than most other hul materials. I recently surveyed a 40 foot steel yacht that had been sitting semi abandoned on the hardstand for four years. The anchor locker had rusted right through the topsides in a number of places. Luckily no water had got inside, so the rest of the hull was fine but the exterior was well due to be sandblasted back to bare metal and coated again. Which is also the other issue with steel yachts. The cost was roughly $9000 Australian and it cannot be done yourself unless you have access to a sandblast unit.
There is nothing wrong with a steel yacht if they are well maintained and built.
I often inspect coatings on industrial gas pipelines and wonder what would happen if we applied those strict coating guide lines to a steel yacht. I think you would end up with a better paint job and maybe more life out of it?
Cheers

[Dockhead]

Every hull material has its own pluses and minuses -- there is no perfect solution for all sailors.

Plastic has a lot of virtues, is electrically and galvanically inert, is easy and cheap to repair, and can be made very strong and light. However, large structures need to be cored in order to be very strong, and this introduces some complexity, cost, and additional failure modes.

Downside of plastic is mainly in the deck and superstructure, I would say. It's not easy to attach things to it strongly, and it is not easy to attach things to it and be sure that it will stay watertight for long periods of time.

Metal is easy to make perfectly watertight, and you can weld stuff to it if you need to change the deck arrangement. The watertight thing is exceptionally important -- small leaks in the deck can wreak havoc inside.

Underwater fittings are also very nice on metal boats -- can be strongly welded in. Easy to make a proper sea chest.

Achieving high impact resistance is relatively easy with metal boats.

Downside is corrosion. A penny dropped into the bilge of an alu boat can sink it. You really have to manage the galvanic situation, and stray currents. Also there is generally more maintenance (if the topsides are painted).

So you pays your money and takes your choices. My present boat is plastic but with Kevlar for impact resistance -- not a bad compromise. But the next boat will be alu.

[Gaia]

Originally Posted by TJ D

Ah Jim, it's the internet. Plenty of stuff out there that's not going to agree with your point of view.

Steel's fine, and it can be made into a relatively fast boat, too.

I own one of those carbon fiber creations you mention, with a D/L of 72 and a SA/D of around 30. That's awfully hard to achieve in steel. Aluminum too, for that matter.

And, while it's true that steel doesn't rust like mad if it's taken care of properly, your middle of the road steel hull still isn't as easy to take care of as a GRP boat. It's just not. Maybe if the boat was builit with 20 coats of primer, never gets any water in the bilge, and never has any stray current issues, there's nothing that can go wrong, but in real life-water does get into the bilge, paints fail, and rust starts.

And- the rust, not the superficial stuff, but the nasty, bilge eating stuff occurs in parts of the boat that are often very hard to access to re-coat.

None of this is disparaging to steel. I like the material enough that I bought a steel boat, and am actually currently at sea on a steel boat. But, glossing over the maintenance headaches that CAN happen doesn't help anybody either. I've certainly spent my fair share of time priming and painting my bilge during my tenure as a steel boat owner! (it was supposed to be dry, but never truly was.

To the 'ditching' thing- what I meant was that if I were to own steel again, it would be for a very specific, limited objective, and I would probably have an extremely simple interior setup-just a shell with some pipe berths and a single burner cooker. Not a cruising boat, but just a tool to get the job done. Job done-ditch (sell, if you prefer) tool.

Have a fine evening, friend.

I completely agree with all that you wrote and certainly did not mean to minimise the work needed to properly maintain a steel boat. Or any boat.

And yes, the internet gives the opportunity to anyone to express their opinions. That is mostly a good thing.

Enjoy the sailing!

Jim

[davefrediam]

Hi all I would like to say that of all the materials for building a boat Titanium is just about perfect. It has the strength of steel but its weight is closer to aluminium, quality annealed titanium is as ductile as steel (not brittle as some say), it has the best resistance (pure titanium) to salt water corrosion of any metal full stop, if you made one you would be creating an heirloom! I know all this as I have worked extensively with it in the aircraft industry.
However the biggest down side is its cost, relative to steel or aluminium it is monstrously expensive, it is also harder to weld and work with (as it work hardens quickly).
Yeah if I won the lottery and was after the perfect cruiser it would make it from Titanium!
As it is I have a Feltz Skorpion II pilothouse which is a steel 39 footer made by a profession yard in Hamburg (the hull) to a well developed and understood design, mine was built in 1993 but they had been producing them for over 8 years by then. It is heavy for her LOA at around 13 ton so does require a tage more wind than a plastic yacht and you do have to keep on top of rust but as already mentioned this is not to onerous providing she was prepared and coated properly in the first place as mine was!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by davefrediam

Hi all I would like to say that of all the materials for building a boat Titanium is just about perfect. It has the strength of steel but its weight is closer to aluminium, quality annealed titanium is as ductile as steel (not brittle as some say), it has the best resistance (pure titanium) to salt water corrosion of any metal full stop, if you made one you would be creating an heirloom! I know all this as I have worked extensively with it in the aircraft industry.
However the biggest down side is its cost, relative to steel or aluminium it is monstroIusly expensive, it is also harder to weld and work with (as it work hardens quickly).
Yeah if I won the lottery and was after the perfect cruiser it would make it from Titanium!
As it is I have a Feltz Skorpion II pilothouse which is a steel 39 footer made by a profession yard in Hamburg (the hull) to a well developed and understood design, mine was built in 1993 but they had been producing them for over 8 years by then. It is heavy for her LOA at around 13 ton so does require a tage more wind than a plastic yacht and you do have to keep on top of rust but as already mentioned this is not to onerous providing she was prepared and coated properly in the first place as mine was!

Titanium these days costs only about $5000 per metric tonne.
That's about double or 2.5x the cost of aluminum alloy. So I don't think the material is "monstrously expensive" at all. The difference in materials cost would not be a big deal, I think, as a percentage of the total cost of a custom built boat. Now the cost of WORKING it will be higher -- don't know what the cost difference there would be.

But I think that a titanium hulled boat is a very interesting proposition, actually. IIRC, some Japanese guy made one at home some years ago.

[Snowpetrel]

Cupronickel would be my ideal, with stainless frames and stringers and a 316 stainless steel deck. Cupronickel is very expensive, but it has natural antifouling properties.

[davefrediam]

Dockhead Titanium may as a material be cheaper than it was but it is not commonly available in the sheet sizes, thicknesses and grade required like steel is, so you will suddenly find your 3 to 4 times the price of steel turns into 10 times at least!
I am familiar with the Jap guy who built his own yacht and know he wasnt
just any Joe bloggs and owned a major engineering company which he used to build it.
Trust me you would need at least a few millions in the bank to build one around 40ft but would be more than happy if you could prove me wrong and go do it for less

[hellosailor]

Jim, steel does like to rust. Unlike boats, the steel used in sheet metal auto parts is galvanized. In fact, even in the 1980's Honda got in big trouble over corrosion problems because they didn't use "zincrometal" or whatever Detroit called their better body panel material. Major settlement and the whole Japanese auto industry shifted their product to meet US market standards.

Not that I haven't seen structural corrosion on Fords from the 1960's, or later models from many companies. But on a boat, all you have to do is scrap the bottom, and the rust grows unseen. Couple of the more popular Youtube boat channels have had surprises that required a haul out and a welder to take care of them. That's just something normal for metal boats, if their owners are not as tuned in to routine maintenace issues, as you happen to be.

That's no knocking metal boats--just saying, they have issues that the mass market doesn't need or want to be concerned with.

[ZULU40]

the auto industry was virtually forced to overcome corrosion because of the use of salt in de-icing roads, some of it from makers themselves, some by legislation.

likewise there are blends of steels for marine use, popular in Holland was Cor-Ten steel.

Like the car industry paint systems and designing out rust traps has made good inroads on the cost of maintainability of steel vessels.

I think at some point the concept of steel boats was sold as a cheap option, which has had consequences on maintenance budgets which are nearly always less than they need to be.

I dont think there is a perfect blend of survivability a cruising boat needs to have and maintainability people can afford. Pretty much just shifts of focus on core assets, prioritising just one.

,

[Gaia]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Jim, steel does like to rust. Unlike boats, the steel used in sheet metal auto parts is galvanized. In fact, even in the 1980's Honda got in big trouble over corrosion problems because they didn't use "zincrometal" or whatever Detroit called their better body panel material. Major settlement and the whole Japanese auto industry shifted their product to meet US market standards.

Not that I haven't seen structural corrosion on Fords from the 1960's, or later models from many companies. But on a boat, all you have to do is scrap the bottom, and the rust grows unseen. Couple of the more popular Youtube boat channels have had surprises that required a haul out and a welder to take care of them. That's just something normal for metal boats, if their owners are not as tuned in to routine maintenace issues, as you happen to be.

That's no knocking metal boats--just saying, they have issues that the mass market doesn't need or want to be concerned with.

Good points Hello Sailor except for the so called unseen scrapes on the bottom. As I mentioned earlier we had contact with Mother Earth off the beaten path in Suriname that resulted in a short scrape down to metal through multiple layers of epoxy paint and antifouling on the one inch thick bottom of the keel. Once in clean water easy, not hard, to see. In clean tropical water one is in that water daily and inspections are one of the things one does as a matter of course. Guess what? Steel hardly corrodes at all under water! Corrosion requires not only water but also Oxygen and the limited solubility of Oxygen limits the corrosion rate. We do not worry about scrapes under water until haul out. We do something about scrapes above the waterline pronto. Particularly in places that might get or stay moist.Oxygen there is of course readily available and corrosion can be fast if moisture is also available. Without one or the other steel will not corrode.

Our Gazelle was designed with a 1 inch thick steel keel bottom and 1/4 inch keel sides. From there on up the design called for 1/8 inch plating. Contact if any for us has never been above the keel and 'normally' on the one inch thick bottom. Scrapes on even 1/4 inch steel under water would take years to corrode to a problem. We know this for a fact because we haul out once every two or three years for anti-fouling. We know we have no need to haul out for a scrape under water by occasional experience. One can not measure any appreciable loss of steel even after two years.

And yes of course zinc coating, and paint systems are behind the longevity of steel cars whose metal is ultra thin. Zinc coating either as hot dipping or as zinc rich paint is also used on steel boats above the waterline. We used zinc rich epoxy extensively on GAIA when she was built in Canada.

And "does not want to be concerned with"? In the US of A perhaps but steel boat building is much more common in Europe where as a consequence there is much more knowledge and discussions like this do not occur. I have a brother in Holland that owns a 115 year old traditional wooden sailboat!

Jim

[Gaia]

Sorry, I meant traditional steel sailboat. Not wood of course. It is known as a Skutsje I believe but might have the spelling wrong.

Hope we have not drifted off the original topic too far. So called 'seasoned' sailors sail steel boats because they are the strongest and safest out there on the oceans far away from assistance should things go wrong. They are willing to put up the extra effort for this every day feeling of safety. When one ventures off the beaten path or even on it such as the coral strewn Bahamas and Turks and Caicos, and one glances over the side to see the coral heads whizzing by that strong steel hull gives peace to the anguished soul.

Jim