Why are helms placed so far back on modern yachts?

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by thomm225

What's your hurry?

Next time I decide to sail from here to Falmouth, UK or Bermuda to the Azores, I'll consider getting a faster boat.

But for now a knot or so makes little difference.....

On second thought, I'm a guy that enjoys history and the way boats and sailors used to do it, so experiencing sailing in my old, slowish boat is part of the plan.

When you're not in a hurry, you can always sail the faster boat slower (and with greatly reduced stress on everything, including crew, as you're not pushing the boat hard). But you can't necessarily sail the slow boat faster.


Basically, speed buys you flexibility. And in some cases, the shorter transit time may not really matter on the surface. But if it means your transit is now short enough to fit into a decent weather window vs waiting 3 weeks for a longer one, that little bit of speed has just gotten you to your destination a whole lot sooner.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

When you're not in a hurry, you can always sail the faster boat slower (and with greatly reduced stress on everything, including crew, as you're not pushing the boat hard). But you can't necessarily sail the slow boat faster.


Basically, speed buys you flexibility. And in some cases, the shorter transit time may not really matter on the surface. But if it means your transit is now short enough to fit into a decent weather window vs waiting 3 weeks for a longer one, that little bit of speed has just gotten you to your destination a whole lot sooner.

As a beach cat racer for 15 years reaching speeds in the mid 20 knot range, , all monohulls are slow to me.

The context of my comment was also to a poster that said that a friend's Bristol 27 was the last to arrive during some day sail they did.

My point was once you are 5 miles or so offshore it doesn't matter all that much about who is ahead and who isn't it's more about weather and tide etc

Many times during distance races slow boats can beat fast boats if they get in the right weather/wind

As far as wear and tear, I can buy a faster boat like a J/30 which some have said would be fine to cruise offshore on but to me it isn't a strong or seaworthy boat like the one I have which I can push pretty hard because it's quite overbuilt.

Even the sail plan is smallish but the shrouds are many plus forestay and back stay. And it will heave too easily or you can lay a hull neither of which I would enjoy but as a single hander if over tired I'd go that route.

But the big factor when I bought my monohull 10 years ago was price not speed since I knew monohulls were slow anyway. I didn't know if I would even like slow boat sailing so I figured for the $2,000 I paid for the boat it was worth a try

Plus I wanted an old full keel sailboat....

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by thomm225

What's your hurry?

I gave you specifics of the benefits of sailing faster.

Maybe your version of cruising doesn't go very far. I don't know. From Hampton to Cape Charles is 20 miles. At 5 kts that's four hours. At six knots that's three and a half. Big difference maybe not, until you leave Hampton in the morning and that half-hour means docking in a summer afternoon thunderstorm or holed up in The Shanty or Kelly's.

My point is not about being in a hurry. It's about safety and efficiency. That extra week off a transatlantic ripples to food and water, rest, weather risk.

It's easy to choose a boat that can go faster. It's even easier to take lessons to sail what you have faster. You expressed an interest in historical sailing. Dig deeper. You'll find a fairly high interest in getting the most speed out of their boats.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I gave you specifics of the benefits of sailing faster.

Maybe your version of cruising doesn't go very far. I don't know. From Hampton to Cape Charles is 20 miles. At 5 kts that's four hours. At six knots that's three and a half. Big difference maybe not, until you leave Hampton in the morning and that half-hour means docking in a summer afternoon thunderstorm or holed up in The Shanty or Kelly's.

My point is not about being in a hurry. It's about safety and efficiency. That extra week off a transatlantic ripples to food and water, rest, weather risk.

It's easy to choose a boat that can go faster. It's even easier to take lessons to sail what you have faster. You expressed an interest in historical sailing. Dig deeper. You'll find a fairly high interest in getting the most speed out of their boats.

I'm an exracer and don't need lessons to make my boat sail faster.

As I mentioned, this was my first monohull to see if I liked that sort of sailing and paid very little for the boat I wanted. Happened upon it on the Eastern Shore just outside Onancock in what used to be Deep Creek. Some cruiser from Massachusetts had left it there 5 years earlier on his return from Florida and the Bahamas

As for as crossing the lower bay, I've done that several times in 3 hours usually by having good wind and catching the tide just right.

Another time I made it in 3 hours or maybe a little less with strong winds but against the tide.

2nd video is coming back from York Town

As far as docking, I only dock so far at my marina. When I cross I anchor out thunderstorm or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nXfjcCuiPk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okRZs6os5Eo

[Cynara]

Our steering was worm gear. Couldn't figure anyway it could fail. Proper windvane, ours was Auto-Helm, notice the dash in the name made by scanmar, no lines to the cockpit and can be a spare rudder. That was our setup for 50,000 miles lf you want an autopilot you can hook one up to push/pull windvane feather. Worked great for us.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Cynara

Our steering was worm gear. Couldn't figure anyway it could fail. Proper windvane, ours was Auto-Helm, notice the dash in the name made by scanmar, no lines to the cockpit and can be a spare rudder. That was our setup for 50,000 miles lf you want an autopilot you can hook one up to push/pull windvane feather. Worked great for us.

Looks pretty neat but the site says:

THE AUTO-HELM WINDVANE IS NO LONGER IN PRODUCTION. PLEASE EMAIL OR CALL FOR PARTS AVAILABILITY.

​

[Cynara]

I guess I won't recommend it anymore. Too bad thanks for letting me know

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by ChrisJHC

I’ve only been on a couple of yachts with windvanes but I think there would be no difference in installing these between tillers and wheels.

Re autopilots, most people find them much easier to fit to a tiller. I’d like to hear your reasoning for the opposite.

Pull off the wheel
Attach wheel ap to pedestal
Reinstall wheel
Connect to power
Done
Pretty short work and no tiller steering connection to get in the way

Works on my little boat

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

Pull off the wheel
Attach wheel ap to pedestal
Reinstall wheel
Connect to power
Done
Pretty short work and no tiller steering connection to get in the way

Works on my little boat

A wind vane autopilot is much better.

No power required!

And they are better built than electric autopilots

[Master56]

On yachts up to about 38ft, I prefer a tiller on a stern hung rudder. Better feel of the craft, more direct, easy maintenance and no pedestal and wheel constantly taking up valuable space. But; "there's a hole in everything, that's how the light gets in." (L.Cohen)

[Kolchac]

1. I think the mainsail should block vision badly for center cockpit at close hauled, close reach.
2. When you sail behind the aft helm, you see the whole boat
3. COB situation is better handling if the cockpit is aft.

[Joli]

Originally Posted by thomm225

What's your hurry?

Next time I decide to sail from here to Falmouth, UK or Bermuda to the Azores, I'll consider getting a faster boat.

But for now a knot or so makes little difference.....

On second thought, I'm a guy that enjoys history and the way boats and sailors used to do it, so experiencing sailing in my old, slowish boat is part of the plan.

More boat speed allows positioning the boat in better locations for upcoming changes in weather. Sometimes there is a reason to hurry.

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by chrisr

just thought i'd throw this in for folk to look at

it's a typical VO70 cockpit. these are boats that are designed to be driven hard in the worst possible conditions, with no thought about cocktails etc or anything other than what WORKS BEST

please note (a) the open stern (b) the position of the wheels

Attachment 248314

cheers,

This is a racer of course. I think the OP and most of the followers in this thread referred to cruising or even coastal/day sailing. The VO70, like many other racers (including my Farr 40) sails fast, but offers horrible protection to the crew and helmsman even in way less than worse conditions - say, ice-rain, 2-3 meters sea and 20-25 kts of breeze... IMO, we can't call this "work best' in such conditions or worse, it actually degrades the actual racing performance, by limiting the crew.

[DeValency]

In getting back to the OP question. Finally few here actually pointed to the key reason; enabling more space in the cockpit in modern designs, especially with dual helm. There is a price to it, if the helmsman is standing (or sitting) behind the wheel, more exposure to the sun, waves etc., but cruisers, are usually sitting in front of the wheel during most of the journey. Also, many add fully enclosed (rollup/removable) panels to keep everyone happy and protected from the elements.

Cruising on a center cockpit Contest, fully enclosed cockpit with a hardtop is ideal for many offshore conditions, but I can definitely see the value in the recent designs; dual helms/rudders, larger cockpits and easy access from aft.

[Whokickamoocow]

I ordered a dual rudder/single tiller boat but with dual helms (I lean towards tillers normally).
It pushed the helm position from sitting neatly behind the dodger to aft and outboard.
It definitely made the helming position more violent in motion when working to windward in big seas. My tether saved me a few times from becoming an inglorious heap on the lee rail.
But for all other times the visibility and position was fantastic. And it didn't change the emergency tiller system at all (tiller handle that slots straight into the top of the rudders)
Besides, with modern autopilots, the helm position is in good hands. In fresh conditions , I'd spend more time trimming or doing nav or oddjobs than at the helm.
Ergo: no its not as comfortable. But I liked the rest of it so much it stopped me from changing it back.