Why are helms placed so far back on modern yachts?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by rondelais

The cynic in me says the wheels are so far back to make the cockpit bigger so more people can fit for cocktails…

Why is it cynicism? An important design parameter is comfort of the cockpit for non-sailing purposes. It's a genuine -- and highly sellable -- advantage of boats with the wheels out at the quarters.

My own boat is seriously compromised in this. I have a large center cockpit, with the helm at the aft end of the cockpit. I can't just walk around the helm to get to the multitude of controls (mainsheet, vang, staysail sheet, mainsail furling, topping lift) located on the cabintop under the spray hood. I have to climb up and over, and step over people lounging in the cockpit.

If I had a boat with a cockpit unobstructed by anything, with the helm and sailing controls well away from it, I would be very glad. I always liked those old Swans with separate working and lounging cockpits, although of course that costs dearly in interior space below.

[rslifkin]

On those modern wedge hulls with a wide stern, that also moves the center of pitch further aft, so the comfort downside of having the helm really far aft is reduced compared to a more traditional hull shape.

[MicHughV]

then there is the wheel itself.....now available with sides of the wheel that can fold inward, creating more space for someone with a fat butt to squeeze around it..

don't look away...we know who you are....

[Dr. D]

Why all this hating on cockpits that are generous?

Gosh, I can entertain in the cockpit. Why is that so disparaged? I like having company at times.

Besides, my boat has handholds in front of each helm and handholds at the back and front of the cockpit table. Makes for easy movement about the cockpit in any conditions. If I start to sail in serious seas I would install jacklines and use a short tether.

Having the twin helms at the transom does reduce the spray and I can’t say the motion is unpleasant. I prefer to stand when at the helm although there are seats. While solo sailing I like to be able to look around from both sides of the boat.

[lockie]

As always, it's horses for courses. For a well-crewed racer or for day sailing, I can't see any problem. But for a short-handed or solo cruiser?



My several miserable days, when the self-steering failed, hand-steering with a bit of scrap duct-taped to the tiller that allowed me to cringe just for'ard enough to get some shelter from the dodger, made me reflect on how unutterably more miserable I'd have been if I was perched way back on the boat's arse, turning the wheel as the waves washed thigh-high through the cockpit!


Cheers, Graeme

[Jim Cate]

made me reflect on how unutterably more miserable I'd have been if I was perched way back on the boat's arse, turning the wheel as the waves washed thigh-high through the cockpit!

Ya know, I'd be surprised if you could find many folks with modern yachts with open transoms and dual outboard wheels that have EVER experienced ANY waves through the cockpit, let alone on a frequent basis. The high freeboard and buoyant lines of such boats make boarding waves a rare event. Do remember that if the boat is heeled, steering from the high side will keep you outta the slop most of the time, even if there are boarding waves.

And if their steering had failed and life was indeed a dire as depicted in your story, heaving to for the duration of the event would have made life a lot better. And yes, I know that most believe that such boats will not heave to well... but fore-reaching under very small canvas is a good substitute, and will relieve the helm duty as well as heaving to does.

And that goes for you too, in the situation you describe: if you had hove to you could have gone below and had a rum or whatever. Your tiller steered vessel would have taken good care of you had you given her a chance.

Jim

[lockie]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Ya know, I'd be surprised if you could find many folks with modern yachts with open transoms and dual outboard wheels that have EVER experienced ANY waves through the cockpit, let alone on a frequent basis. The high freeboard and buoyant lines of such boats make boarding waves a rare event. Do remember that if the boat is heeled, steering from the high side will keep you outta the slop most of the time, even if there are boarding waves.

And if their steering had failed and life was indeed a dire as depicted in your story, heaving to for the duration of the event would have made life a lot better. And yes, I know that most believe that such boats will not heave to well... but fore-reaching under very small canvas is a good substitute, and will relieve the helm duty as well as heaving to does.

And that goes for you too, in the situation you describe: if you had hove to you could have gone below and had a rum or whatever. Your tiller steered vessel would have taken good care of you had you given her a chance.

Jim

Yes Jim quite so, and I did heave to when nature called or a cuppa was indicated, but I was exhausted and needed to reach my anchorage for some serious rest, and to avoid the several days of even worse weather that was coming. Point taken about waves sloshing through, but say I substitute that with driving rain? I'd still rather be able to make some way without being perched back there. Like I said, horses for courses.

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by thomm225

I'm surprised more boats at least up to about 33' don't have tillers.

With a tiller, you are usually sitting near the hatch whether you are on autopilot or steering.

It makes it nice during bad weather or when it's rough also so you can stay dry.

Plus the tiller autopilots are quite inexpensive as compared to an autopilot for a wheel helm.

All true, good points. If you want a feel to the helm, go with a smallish boat with tiller steering. Keep forward in the cockpit to stay dry.



For a larger boat dedicated to comfort, we give up the feel of the helm gladly in return for wheel steering in a totally dry location. Use of hydraulics makes a very easy touch on the wheel, and it's convenient since no wheel lock is necessary.


I think the designers are betting that most new boat buyers will be impressed by a large continuous bench seating area with long table in the cockpit which means it must be forward of the helm.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by waterman46

All true, good points. If you want a feel to the helm, go with a smallish boat with tiller steering. Keep forward in the cockpit to stay dry.

For a larger boat dedicated to comfort, we give up the feel of the helm gladly in return for wheel steering in a totally dry location. Use of hydraulics makes a very easy touch on the wheel, and it's convenient since no wheel lock is necessary.

I think the designers are betting that most new boat buyers will be impressed by a large continuous bench seating area with long table in the cockpit which means it must be forward of the helm.

I like tillers, too.


Tillers actually make even more sense now that almost all steering once you're out of the harbour is done with the autopilot. Unlike a wheel, a tiller can be swung up out of the way when the pilot is working which gives you even better situation in the cockpit, than with a wheel.



The Dutch use tillers on even very large boats -- I guess a carryover from their canal boats. I've seen Dutch boats over 60 feet with tiller steering. I like it.

[MicHughV]

I can only speak for the Beneteau, but I know several other models that are similar.
Yes, it has an open transom, so the cockpit sole, at a rough guess, is probably around 3' above the water...and the companionway sill probably adds another 12" to that.

Most importantly, the Beneteau butt is quite wide and relatively flat, so plenty of displacement volume in the 'ole girls arse.

Waves, even big one's, have a tendency to pick the stern up...and scoot the boat on downhill. I don't recall ever seeing a wave climb on the boat....not once...

But if a wave ever did crawl aboard, it wouldn't stay there long, as it would simply wash back out the way it came, without interference from anything. The opening behind the wheel is quite large, I'd venture to say that any wave that ever came aboard, would wash back out in seconds. The cockpit sole actually slopes down to the rear.

In bygone years, I thought the open transom concept was nuts, but have since swung the other way now, and think it's a great feature, especially for those of advanced age....(anything more than 50), as climbing onto the boat from the stern is about as easy as it can get.

[gwlaster]

Some of the reasoning behind helms placed farther aft is a combination of how boats are used and a manufacturer marketing to that use. If you will notice, all those boats with the helm further aft also have much larger cockpits than many boats used to have. Many real offshore boaters would say the cockpit needs to be minimally sized and more protected from large following seas or stormy seas, in general. The "average" boater is not necessarily an offshore passagemaker wants as much room as possible to make the cockpit into an entertainment and lounge area where fewer people are down below and more are in the cockpit. Pushing the helm aft and closer to the beam, also allows running more control lines (sheets, halyard, travelers, etc) out of the cockpit and aft without "interfering" with the cockpit. It sort of gets the helmsman out of the way.

[oscarkramer]

This is a good question and one I've been wondering about myself. To anyone that's been pooped offshore, the thought of sitting on the aft coaming with breaking following seas is pretty scary. Granted the autopilot/windvane is likely being used, but if not (like when something broke in heavy conditions), I would want a bit of distance between me and the back of the boat, at least to break the momentum of the green water a bit. I want to sit inside the cockpit, with a proper high coaming around it, not on the coaming where I might surf right off the boat, or be thrown against something hard. Alas, the modern designs seem to take the IMOCA aesthetic as a marketing decision, and ignore the needs of the average offshore sailor.

[GarryD]

Never sailed a centre cockpit boat, but feel that having the helmsman at the aftmost point of the boat allows them to have the crew and sails in view all the time. Covers safety and sail trimming etc.

[argonauta1]

Hi Folks, some good points. Should one choose an aft cockpit vessel then the master cabin will necessarily be forward and the steering linkage to the rudder will obviously be shorter. Any vessel rigged with the necessities for bluewater cruising will need presence at the helm infrequently when underway. On our Galapagos to Marquesas' passage of some 2900 NM in our aft cockpit Beneteau 440, we never hand-steered and might have touched the wheel maybe a couple of dozen times. Wave in the cockpit? Never, only flying fish! At night we always clipped on and as a couple, we were able to maintain a cockpit watch 24/7.

[bluepearl54]

Excellent questions, we (Hylas 54, Blue Pearl) have done a lot of ocean passage making the last ten years and I am very confused with newer hull and hardtop designs. I love my center cockpit , with wheel pedestal right there and excellent weather enclosures. Looking at the newer designs just doesn’t give me the same sense of safety or even comfort but I haven’t been on them in a long distance ocean passage environment so I recognize that maybe I’m just a recalcitrant old timer!