Why are helms placed so far back on modern yachts?

[dhillstrom]

An aft-located helm offers good visibility of the entire boat, the course ahead, and a good view of the sails. It also keeps the rest of the cockpit clear for lounging or winch grinding. Terrific on warm, sunny afternoons, but it's exposed to the weather.

My custom-built Bruce Roberts 36 has the unusual configuration of the wheel mounted at the front of the cockpit (but still an aft cockpit), sheltered under a substantial dog house. This offers pleasant shelter from spray and the chilly winds that blow along the Northern California coast. A disadvantage, and a significant one, is that I cannot easily observe the trim of my sails from the helm. I am satisfied with the trade-off of comfortable cruising over performance sailing, but mine is a minority viewpoint.

From a safety perspective, I don't perceive much difference.

[Hermia II]

I haven't read everything above and I think you have a point. Being further back gives a better view of deck and crew. Many boats are designed with racing in mind, so seeing what the crew is up to and directing them is a factor.
You mention safety and I fully agree that many modern boats have the helm stations too much exposed. A wide flat afterdeck with limited handholds and only two thin wires to stop you being swept away by a wave. Good for interior volume, bad for safety. Older yachts often have a deep cockpit, which could give you a good bath, but you'll have a much better chance of staying on board.

[Oceanride007]

My boat is a Robert Perry Custom design in steel, original owner may have implemented this change but my wheel is in line with the Primaries, under the lip of the Dodger, I have no problem looking at mast head, when i stand astride on cockpit seats when maneuvering reckon my perspective is better than aft positioned, aft cockpit.
Only dis advantage is sometimes I take the wheel off to aid access to my off centre companionway. It also enabled lid of Cockpit storage to lift past the wheel. So really my cockpit is designed for it. Also gives my MFD some protection from Sun & rain, dodger of course also gives me a chance to dodge out of way of spray.

[girdasso]

As with most questions of this nature it depends on what you plan to do with your boat. if you are planning to cruise the oceans in high latitudes in all weathers a protected helm position and netting on your lifelines would be smart. however if planning to race closer to home a better view of the whole boat and sails from an aft position is essential. In my experience up to 42 feet a tiller is best for racing, above that a wheel provides better control and both near the aft corner.

[rondelais]

The cynic in me says the wheels are so far back to make the cockpit bigger so more people can fit for cocktails…

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by rondelais

The cynic in me says the wheels are so far back to make the cockpit bigger so more people can fit for cocktails…

Sometimes cynicism approaches insight and the truth...

I think there is a lot of truth in your observation!

Jim

[MicHughV]

couldn't agree more....

these days cockpits are designed for entertaining in mind..cocktail hour...

my first boat had a center cockpit....no table...four people were a crowd..the helm took center stage...to eat...you had to hold your plate in your hand..

The Beneteau sports a table with fold up wings, that cockpit can seat twelve people with room to spare..

pass the grey poupon puh-lease.....

[goboatingnow]

There are several reasons , one clearly is an uninterrupted cockpit

The other is sight lines because of high coach roofs , obstructed straight line views and so forth on modern boats.

Then the rudders are now very close to the transom

Then there is the trend for big headsails so to see around them you need to a long way aft.

The trend apes racing boats

Fashion plays a part

It’s multi faceted

[blubaju]

Think about "party room", boat work out of lounge

[goboatingnow]

I took a walk round the marina , certainly on 50 + most helms were 2 metres forward of the transom

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by girdasso

As with most questions of this nature it depends on what you plan to do with your boat. if you are planning to cruise the oceans in high latitudes in all weathers a protected helm position and netting on your lifelines would be smart. however if planning to race closer to home a better view of the whole boat and sails from an aft position is essential. In my experience up to 42 feet a tiller is best for racing, above that a wheel provides better control and both near the aft corner.

in general agree, however cannot immediately think of any TP 52 that does not have tiller steering...although they can often be a challenge on the helm (ask me how i know...)

cheers,

[MicHughV]

times change....idea's change...people change...in the past I always thought a walk thru' transom was the dumbest thing I ever saw....today, I think it's the cat's meow.....
boats have evolved over the years..schooners belong to a bygone age...as do hank on foresails...etc..etc...
who knows what tomorrow will bring....canting keels....foils, etc proliferate the racing boats....some trickle down affect will soon be apparent in your basic sailboat..already seen in keel designs...

but, there is a boat for every type of sailor out there, regardless of your sailing ambitions...dinghies, sloops, cutters, ketches, and everything in between.

somewhere in this mix will be a boat that will appeal to "you"...not anyone else....just"you".....that's the beauty of this sport...there is something for everybody...

[PerfectPirate]

Originally Posted by rondelais

The cynic in me says the wheels are so far back to make the cockpit bigger so more people can fit for cocktails…

This isn't just cynicism. Boat builders (and designers) of necessity build the kind of boats that people are wanting to buy. Modern usage of pleasure yachts by most sailors has gravitated to charter-type sailing: short passages in fairly sheltered waters going from harbour to harbour, and then having a convivial time with friends, crew and guests. Care to guess what sort of cockpit design lends itself to that activity?

Yup, it's wide and open cockpits with an open transom so that you can back right up to the dock. This facilitates boarding by land-lubbers and easy socializing. It may not be the optimum design for long passages in deep, challenging waters (I really miss the handholds and bracing points), but it is excellent for how the majority of people will use their boats. And even honest passage-makers will freely admit that they spend more time at moorings than they do making crossings. Heck, if I could have found a boat with a walk-thru transom that met my other necessary criteria, I would have been happy to buy it. As it is, one of the reasons for buying our current boat is that my wife wanted more cockpit space for entertaining when we are cruising.

[chrisr]

just thought i'd throw this in for folk to look at

it's a typical VO70 cockpit. these are boats that are designed to be driven hard in the worst possible conditions, with no thought about cocktails etc or anything other than what WORKS BEST

please note (a) the open stern (b) the position of the wheels



cheers,

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by psk125

Putting the rudder at the back end of the boat gives it more leverage to turn the boat. This means you can use a smaller rudder, which has less drag. This is a good thing. Having the helm at the back end of the boat puts it near the rudder. This makes it so that the connection to the rudder can be simpler. This means there is less to break and it can be made stronger without it being too heavy. A tight connection also helps provide better "feel" to the helm. These are all good things. Having the helm aft puts most of the boat between waves and the helmsperson, so they stay drier, even though they are closer to the water. They can also see what's going on all around the boat and not just in the front half. Center cockpits usually have to be raised up above the inner cabin space. This makes them less comfortable to be in, as it amplifies the motion of the boat. The long distance to the rudder requires complicated connections that can more easily break increase weight and reduce the "feel" of the helm. Boats CAN have center cockpits. Most don't.

Three objections to this:

1. There is little relationship to helm position and rudder position. No center cockpit boat I have ever seen has the rudder closer to the keel than any other boat. With cables, track rods, or hydraulics, you can put the rudder where it needs to be, and the helm wherever you want it to be. This is a non-issue, so no designer chooses a helm position as a result of rudder placement or helm feel..

2. Center cockpits don't necessarily have worse motion than aft ones. Center cockpits are a bit worse is roll motion than aft ones (but only those with the wheel on the centerline!!), in the same proportion as the height above roll center is greater. But aft cockpits are worse for pitch motion because they are further from the pitch center of the boat. And if the helms are off the centerline and out at the quarters, then these are worse for roll comfort, too. Center cockpits are actually very comfortable -- normally a big advantage in pitch comfort for a small disadvantage in roll comfort.

3. Center cockpits don't compromise interior space provided the boat is large enough for there to be room for passages around the sides of the cockpit intrusion into the hull volume. This normally exists in boats larger than say 45'. Then you just put the cockpit above the engine room. This leaves hull volume for a nice aft cabin.

So you do see a lot of center cockpits on boats over 45'-50'. Few on boats under 45'

As to why helms are being put way out on the quarters in some boats today -- you see better from there, and the helmsman is not in the way of the cockpit. This is fairly typical on modern triangular "wedgie" hull forms with beam carried all the way back to the transom. Standing near the aft end of the boat is not really a problem in bad weather -- getting pooped is very rare, as the stern rises up with waves, especially this big wide sterns.

On the other hand, you don't have much protection from the elements and it's uncomfortable on long passages. But most steering is done by autopilot anyway on long passages so maybe this isn't an issue, either.