What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Superjunkman

I didn’t present my credentials. I’m adult with common sense. One wouldn’t post photos of a license, insurance information, sensitive work related information, proprietary information about composite work they do, delve into testimony given, dishonor an NDA for instance to make a point on a forum that’s purpose is to help someone decide what sailboat to buy. Beyond that only a real dolt would post personal or employment related material online in this current climate.

As to how long I’ve been on this forum that has no bearing on what the truth is. Someone couldn’t been here for 20 years and still be full of it.

You’re welcome.

It's not required but then bragging with something without proof, which makes one nothing more but indistinguishable with trolls whether it's true or not. Others, like Boatman (could've named many others) have been here long enough, known by many other members personally and have a solid knowledge many of us listen to.

[Superjunkman]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

It's not required but then bragging with something without proof, which makes one nothing more but indistinguishable with trolls whether it's true or not. Others, like Boatman (could've named many others) have been here long enough, known by many other members personally and have a solid knowledge many of us listen to.

So you want me to provide personal information to you so you can decide if my advice is good and my opinions are valid? What if everything I say is true and you still don’t agree with me? What if I made it all up and it’s still good advice. What then?

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Superjunkman

So you want me to provide personal information to you so you can decide if my advice is good and my opinions are valid? What if everything I say is true and you still don’t agree with me? What if I made it all up and it’s still good advice. What then?

No, but don't expect anyone to take your word seriously until you create more credibility without acting as a besserwisser.. Besides I already said I agree with most of your statements but they are not an absolute truth.

[Superjunkman]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

No, but don't expect anyone to take your word seriously until you create more credibility without acting as a besserwisser.. Besides I already said I agree with most of your statements but they are not an absolute truth.

I’m fine with not being taken seriously by people who I wouldn’t take seriously.

As to absolute truth there isn’t one. People have crossed oceans in glorified barrels. When I used to work off the coast of the Philippines you’d see what looked like a dugout canoe with homemade outriggers a couple hundred miles offshore fishing. My opinions are likely the same opinions most that’ve been out there doing it in far flung places where no help is available. That’s good enough for me.

[AiniA]

Originally Posted by Superjunkman

So the experience of all the people that disagree reaches 100’s of years? So does the accumulated but paltry sailing experience of all the puddle pirates that never leave the dock. There’s nothing controversial about anything I’ve said. Go cruise through anchorage at St. Helena or some other far flung place. The boats all look pretty similar to what I described.

Well, when we were in St Helena we were the only boat there so hard to know. Let's back up to the boats we saw in South Africa who were nearing completion of circumnavigations either to Europe or he Caribbean. The range of boats was huge - the youngsters in their Vegas to the rich folks on modern 50 footers. Very few of what some would call crab-crushers.

Not sure what you mean by saying that your remarks are not controversial. I just think they are limited by certain pre-conceptions. The remarkable thing we saw on our circumnavigation was the huge number of different boats being used of all ages and sizes ... and types. The boats from the 'Golden Age' you talk about were certainly not the majority or even close.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by AiniA

Well, when we were in St Helena we were the only boat there so hard to know. Let's back up to the boats we saw in South Africa who were nearing completion of circumnavigations either to Europe or he Caribbean. The range of boats was huge - the youngsters in their Vegas to the rich folks on modern 50 footers. Very few of what some would call crab-crushers.

Not sure what you mean by saying that your remarks are not controversial. I just think they are limited by certain pre-conceptions. The remarkable thing we saw on our circumnavigation was the huge number of different boats being used of all ages and sizes ... and types. The boats from the 'Golden Age' you talk about were certainly not the majority or even close.

The only thing one learns from these comments is that narcissists have self-esteem issues and seem eager to demonstrate it with examples like implying there are a wide diversity of boats at St Helena.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

The only thing one learns from these comments is that narcissists have self-esteem issues and seem eager to demonstrate it with examples like implying there are a wide diversity of boats at St Helena.

I believe Rory Mcdougall pulled in there with Cooking Fat, his 21ft Tiki during his circumnavigation.. so there is a variety, just not at the same time..

[Superjunkman]

Originally Posted by AiniA

Well, when we were in St Helena we were the only boat there so hard to know. Let's back up to the boats we saw in South Africa who were nearing completion of circumnavigations either to Europe or he Caribbean. The range of boats was huge - the youngsters in their Vegas to the rich folks on modern 50 footers. Very few of what some would call crab-crushers.

Not sure what you mean by saying that your remarks are not controversial. I just think they are limited by certain pre-conceptions. The remarkable thing we saw on our circumnavigation was the huge number of different boats being used of all ages and sizes ... and types. The boats from the 'Golden Age' you talk about were certainly not the majority or even close.

Well I was last in St. Helena in 1998 so there may be a proliferation of old Hunters in the roadstead. Lots of time has gone by.

[MicHughV]

1998 is some 25-26 years ago, bound to be some changes since then.

Many newer models of sailboats since that time.

[Superjunkman]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

1998 is some 25-26 years ago, bound to be some changes since then.

Many newer models of sailboats since that time.

I’m not inactive in sailing. I just haven’t been to SH since 98. I’m also aware that hardly anyone put down a position on a paper chart anymore, everyone uses AIS, etc. the quality of sailor and boat has in general declined.

[MicHughV]

Ha, would like to show you my collection of paper charts, of which I have many. Haven't counted them all, but likely in the 100's. Some originals, many copies, and not a few hand drawn one's by yours truly on tracing paper, replete with colored in green palm trees.
Most all have course lines scribbled on them, plus other odds and ends I no longer remember.
Wouldn't dream of selling them giving them away or whatever.

Modern electronic nav systems are all good and well, but you can't use them to tell a story. It saddens me to see the dependency the modern day sailor has with these things, but GPS has become an integral part of most people's lives, readily available even on your cell phone, not to mention weather apps, sat phones and the like.

The world has and continues to change, but I'm not keen to change with it.

I have attained "old geezer" status and am totally cool with that

[Superjunkman]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

Ha, would like to show you my collection of paper charts, of which I have many. Haven't counted them all, but likely in the 100's. Some originals, many copies, and not a few hand drawn one's by yours truly on tracing paper, replete with colored in green palm trees.
Most all have course lines scribbled on them, plus other odds and ends I no longer remember.
Wouldn't dream of selling them giving them away or whatever.

Modern electronic nav systems are all good and well, but you can't use them to tell a story. It saddens me to see the dependency the modern day sailor has with these things, but GPS has become an integral part of most people's lives, readily available even on your cell phone, not to mention weather apps, sat phones and the like.

The world has and continues to change, but I'm not keen to change with it.

I have attained "old geezer" status and am totally cool with that

I too have giant piles of old charts. I was lucky in that my work aboard ships allowed me to liberate any out of date charts that had been supplanted by a newer edition. I think I’ve paid for maybe less than 10 charts in all my years. I could usually trade something I didn’t need for what I did. I worked on a few old tramp break bulkers. Old stick boom ships that went anywhere and they always had basically the entirety of the worlds oceans covered. Lots of old freebies on those ships. A roll of canvas, Apitong or mahogany dunnage from the east, rolls of cordage, and more. I’ve got some old charts of French Polynesia from the late 30’s that were drawn by a cartographer and printed off. They’re works of art. The marquesas are about 10 miles north of their actual location if my memory serves me right. The survey data is from the 1820’s I think. I should frame a few of them.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by Superjunkman

I’ve got some old charts of French Polynesia from the late 30’s that were drawn by a cartographer and printed off. They’re works of art. The marquesas are about 10 miles north of their actual location if my memory serves me right. The survey data is from the 1820’s I think. I should frame a few of them.

Haha, you never much, (if anything,) about the numbers of naval vessels during WWII, (mostly smaller ones,) that ran into reefs whilst cruising around in the Southwest Pacific/Southeast Asian waters.
Operating at night with charts printed from surveys done in the 1800s.

[Superjunkman]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

Haha, you never much, (if anything,) about the numbers of naval vessels during WWII, (mostly smaller ones,) that ran into reefs whilst cruising around in the Southwest Pacific/Southeast Asian waters.
Operating at night with charts printed from surveys done in the 1800s.

I’ll have to dig these out.

[botanybay]

Originally Posted by B23iL23

If you are doing the Atlantic run and the med you could basically use just about anything. My advice is get the biggest you can afford - Production or one-off, mono or cat.

Make sure it's sound (same with buying any boat) and well checked out.

One bit of advice - The object of cruising is not the passage. We sail from A to B in order to enjoy B. The piece (passage) in between is something you just have to do to get to B, and you should do it as quickly as possible. You will spend 5% of your sailing time doing the passages and 95% bolt upright in a marina or great anchorage, enjoying the boat and all the other things that we love about cruising.

So buy the boat that does the 95% great and the 5% just good enough.

Well, perhaps most people. There are the odd folks (like myself) who love, rather than endure long passages.

My longest was Midway to Los Angeles (35 days, double handed) which was immediately preceded by Kwajalein to Midway (14 days) with a one week stop for crew change, fuel, water, etc.

I seem to end up in “out of season” passages (left Kwajalein on September 12 and arrived LA November 9th. 3days in a feeder storm for a typhoon, all but two days with the wind forward of the beam.

The boat, a carefully rebuilt Cruising CAL 35 (a “baby” CAL 46).

So, to the original poster’s question. What is “”My” definition of a blue water vessel (and this is always a personal opinion, so take it for what it is worth) as compared to a Coastal Cruiser.

The coastal cruiser has the option of running for cover if there is advanced warning the weather is going to degrade and if caught out is severe weather holds together well enough that temporary repairs will last a couple of days of bad weather at sea.

A “Blue Water” vessel can choose when to start a passage but cannot run for cover much of the time. Repaired failures have to survive 10-30 days. The cyclic loads on repairs work to pull anything apart. The redundancy of structure is key, a pulled bulkhead tabbing that has other good structure around it is easy to repair as an example.

Part of the subjective nature of the question is derived from the ability of the crew to make good repairs and forge ahead.

The Polynesians could fix anything aboard with the tools and know how aboard the vessel. Thus a “Blue Water Vessel”

A person with limited repair skills (think “the engineering knack”) can do well with a very robust vessel.

Someone who has an eye to fix things in a semipermanent way while at sea can tolerate a vessel with far less initial robustness.

I guess a way to say this is “the combination of vessel design/build AND crew capability make a blue water vessel”