Vendee 2020

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by DomPerignon

1) Races are won by sailing fast.

2) Light boats are faster than heavier boats.

3) For a boat to be less likely to break, it must be stronger.

4) All other things equal, extra strength implies extra weight.

5) Hence the stronger boat will be slower.


Did it help?

barnakiel

Your explanation makes perfect sense for short races like sprints.
It’s like in running there’s sprints like the 100 or 200 meters but there’s also the marathon. The America’s Cup is like a sprint but the Vendée is a marathon. Those are two completely different types of races. The Vendée is not only about speed it’s about pace .[/QUOTE]


OK.


Another try.


You are talking sprints vs. marathons.


Have you run a marathon? I used to.



Can you run a sprint at the pace of Kipchoge in Berlin?


I hope this time you understand. IMOCAs are running a marathon - at the speed other boats are running sprints.


Now look at a pro marathon runner - have you noticed something in common? Yes - none of them is fat. They are all built extremely light.


And now, did it help?


LIGHT IS FAST. In marathon, in VG, you name it.


You build a stronger IMOCA, it may be safer as you want it, and it will be too slow to win it.


barnakiel

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

IMOCAs are running a marathon - at the speed other boats are running sprints...

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by DomPerignon

Well it did not.


b.

OK from now on talk to Jean Le Cam [/QUOTE]


Very unfortunately, I have not been introduced yet. It would be an honor.


But I have met, and talked with, Jean-Pierre Dick. He is an IMOCA racer and a designer. In his very own words:


"... Lightness is essential ..."


source:
https://www.jpdick-yachts.com/



barnakiel

[DomPerignon]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Your explanation makes perfect sense for short races like sprints.
It’s like in running there’s sprints like the 100 or 200 meters but there’s also the marathon. The America’s Cup is like a sprint but the Vendée is a marathon. Those are two completely different types of races. The Vendée is not only about speed it’s about pace .

OK.


Another try.


You are talking sprints vs. marathons.


Have you run a marathon? I used to.



Can you run a sprint at the pace of Kipchoge in Berlin?


I hope this time you understand. IMOCAs are running a marathon - at the speed other boats are running sprints.


Now look at a pro marathon runner - have you noticed something in common? Yes - none of them is fat. They are all built extremely light.


And now, did it help?


LIGHT IS FAST. In marathon, in VG, you name it.


You build a stronger IMOCA, it may be safer as you want it, and it will be too slow to win it.


barnakiel[/QUOTE]

I understand the need for speed but first you have to make sure you can finish. To win you have to finish. There’s a balance to be achieved.
I caught an interview with Le Cam on a french website before the race and they asked him why to go race those new generation boats with foilers and much faster than you? Do you know what he said? He said very softly and politely «*maybe I have a better chance to finish «*!!

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by DomPerignon

I understand the need for speed but first you have to make sure you can finish. To win you have to finish. There’s a balance to be achieved.
I caught an interview with Le Cam on a french website before the race and they asked him why to go race those new generation boats with foilers and much faster than you? Do you know what he said? He said very softly and politely «*maybe I have a better chance to finish «*!!

No.


You do not 'make sure you can finish'. You make sure you can sail fast.


People who make sure they can finish are not potential winners. They are potential finishers.


Le Roi is sailing a boat that brought Desjoyeaux a win from a late start. That boat was some 600 miles from the fleet when it took off, caught up with, and overtook the other boats. Definitely not an average old non-foiler.


(PLS note non-foilers break as much as foilers too).



Where JLC said 'maybe I have a better chance to finish' - you have missed the exact most important word: he said 'finish'.


He did not say 'win'.



I hope this settles the matter for tonight.


You want the stronger boat, you want to finish.


I want to win, I am sailing the lighter boat, one that may break when pushed very very hard. If it does not break, I may win.


Finishing VG is a great sailing achievement. But finishing and winning are not the same thing.


We are having a fine bash but I am off now as it is 02:30 where I live now ...



G'nite. Have a fine watch.



b.

[jmh2002]

Jury decision needed for Vendée Globe
https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2...-vendee-globe/

UPDATE: The decisions of the five strong International Jury regarding time compensations for Jean Le Cam, Yannick Bestaven, and Boris Herrmann who were all involved in the rescue mission for Kevin Escoffier will be published on December 16, 2020.

[SlashV]

Yannick is currently only 70 miles behind. If he gets some redress, he might move up to first! That would be controversial imho.

[MicHughV]

there are 3 non-foilers in the lead pack.....this after 12,000 miles of racing..Le Cam is about 300 nm behind the leader....factor in his time allowance for the KE rescue, he could well be neck and neck...

The Pacific is next....this will be a telling time...for either the foilers or non-foilers...

I don't think any question, that light boats are faster, in most, but not all, sea conditions and wind conditions.......that is simple physics, the caveat being....if they can stay together...

The jury (and entrants) on this are going to face a tough decision soon, when the time verdict comes out....I'm sure there will be some issues...some yelling and screaming, cussing, ranting and raving....

What the non foilers need to do is win outright....that will put an end to this discussion

[Yellowtulip]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

Actually yes they do. Can’t speak for mountaineers but if you watch any races you’ll see the drivers pulling hearing protection / ear sets off

Yes, they wear ear protection, as do the IMOCA sailors, as I said. They don't slow the cars down to quieten them, unless local noise abatement rules specify that.
To reiterate, designing for speed means that comfort is made secondary at best.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by SlashV

Yannick is currently only 70 miles behind. If he gets some redress, he might move up to first! That would be controversial imho.

At CF perhaps. And then only among the non-racing members.


Race rules probably stipulate if redress is given. Then there is no controversy.


If in the rules there is nothing on it, then there may be some controversy, as rules should not be adjusted while a race lasts.


So. Now, what do the rules book say on redress? Anything.


barnakiel

[Yellowtulip]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

there are 3 non-foilers in the lead pack.....this after 12,000 miles of racing..Le Cam is about 300 nm behind the leader....factor in his time allowance for the KE rescue, he could well be neck and neck...



The Pacific is next....this will be a telling time...for either the foilers or non-foilers...



I don't think any question, that light boats are faster, in most, but not all, sea conditions and wind conditions.......that is simple physics, the caveat being....if they can stay together...



The jury (and entrants) on this are going to face a tough decision soon, when the time verdict comes out....I'm sure there will be some issues...some yelling and screaming, cussing, ranting and raving....



What the non foilers need to do is win outright....that will put an end to this discussion

Not really. If a non-foiler wins this someone will design a faster foiler, which will probably be lighter, but also possibly stronger.

[barnakiel]

Foils have nothing to do with safety.


When JLC was rescued, he was sailing a non-foiler.


Back then drop-out rate was higher than today. The new boats are both faster and safer.


b.

[MicHughV]

the foils certainly intrigue me.....in the AC75 boats..those boats sail mostly up right and in relatively calm water..which means the foil is mostly in a horizontal position......plus the rudder is foiled, so the boat can be kept in a relative constant position with regards the foil location and trim relative the boat and seas condition...those foils also have a relatively flat shape or dihedral.....I believe the rudder foil is computer controlled on the AC75 boats.......but can't say for 100% sure.

The Vendee boats, while foiled, are quite different. Several boats have foils than can retracted, most foils have a rounded shape or a tip that is near vertical, etc....and most importantly, in the southern ocean, those boats jump around quite a bit...meaning the angle of attack thru' the water is constantly changing. The Vendee foils seem to have more to do with the righting moment of the boat and leeward drift ( as the main keel is most often canted way up)....rather than lifting capabilities..

I think the foilers will most likely come into their own coming back up the Atlantic....where the odds are likely more windward work and less boisterous seas....where the foil will provide an edge...just my opinion off course....

[barnakiel]

Up on the return Atlantic course it may actually be the non-foilers that will show their teeth. Especially from the ITCZ upwards. They can sail higher angles, and their foils (aka daggerboards) are optimised for this work.


Daggerboards can get fully retracted but most foils cannot. Hence when the boat sails relatively slow, the non-foiler wins - it has less drag.



From my watching last two editions and a number of other races (Figaro and Mini mostly) - foilers seem to have the highest advantage on a beam reach in moderate to fresh conditions - they have extra righing moment from the foil and they plane smoother and sooner.


b.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Up on the return Atlantic course it may actually be the non-foilers that will show their teeth. Especially from the ITCZ upwards. They can sail higher angles, and their foils (aka daggerboards) are optimised for this work.


Daggerboards can get fully retracted but most foils cannot. Hence when the boat sails relatively slow, the non-foiler wins - it has less drag.



From my watching last two editions and a number of other races (Figaro and Mini mostly) - foilers seem to have the highest advantage on a beam reach in moderate to fresh conditions - they have extra righing moment from the foil and they plane smoother and sooner.


b.

Correct, beam to broad reach is where the foils are most effective - they basically take up to 2/3 of the boat’s displacement and remove it from the water. That’s where the extra speed comes from. The foils also provide lateral resistance, but not as much as daggerboards and with more drag, hence the relative benefit of the non foiling boats in lighter and upwind conditions. In big waves the foils/daggerboards are a wash and it comes down to sailing and weather routing abilities.

It’s interesting that a few people on here are rooting for the non-foilers - it’s a bit like wanting a car with a naturally aspirated engine to beat a car with a turbocharged engine in an open equipment race with engine size limits. Anti progress?

The AC75 foils work completely differently, providing lift and lateral resistance in one. Not sure if this design will translate to ocean going monohulls as the ride height limits the size of the seas that can be handled. Even the giant trimarans use their lifting foils for righting moment rather than ride height in anything other than smooth seas (that is, with less than 3-4 metre chop) - main hull skims the surface rather than lifting free. By avoiding lifting free they don’t have the draggy transition from foiling to non-foiling on every second wave.

Interestingly in the AC, the Kiwis are showing a new technique of partially lifting the leeward foil so that it provides less vertical lift and now provides lift to windward. They must have more than enough vertical lift at times so instead of bleeding off the excess (opposing the excess lift with rudder elevator angle, effectively more drag) they use it to get negative leeway (is there a positive term for that?).

Fun times in combining sailing and flying. Very cool.