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10-01-2021, 14:32
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#571
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Jan 2019
Boat: Beneteau 432, C&C Landfall 42, Roberts Offshore 38
Posts: 6,275
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Re: Vendee 2020
here's how we would resolve this issue, were we ever to consider entering this event...
I'd pick the boat (and appendages) I want and y'all pick the boat (and appendages) you want...and we'd all live happily after...maybe....
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11-01-2021, 01:03
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#572
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Panschwitz, Germany
Boat: Woods Mira 35 Catamaran
Posts: 4,229
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Re: Vendee 2020
In a future race, I would not be surprised to see a means to physically block the keel downward if the hydraulic system fails.
Yep, sad to see Isabel go.
Apart from that I am very impressed by Armel Tripon and Jeremy, both have played a tremendous game of catch up.
Of course Pip's miracle and Jean's performance are equally impressive, as is Sébastien's McGiver approach on his hydraulic pump.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MicHughV
Ha, the old saying about the Vendee is very true....in order to win....you have to finish...
Past Vendee's have had a very high rate of attrition...
At this point in time, there are 5 non-foilers in the lead pack...that speaks for itself...the lead non-foiler is only 200 some nm behind the leader...given that Jean has a 16.15 time advantage, that would also put him in the top 3. All this, after 20,000 plus miles.
A canting keel is a great device...until it isn't...but it also requires foils or daggerboards.
The fact that it is moved all the time, gives rise, in my opinion, to possible failure, not the keel itself, but the means to move it. There is tremendous hydraulic pressure involved and these boats take a brutal pounding.
Hugo Boss, a state of the art boat, didn't make it past Cape Town. Ok, not a keel failure, but a hull failure, which is indicative of the unrelenting pounding these boats take.
Taking all this into account, yes, I think I would opt for a fixed keel, but that's me[emoji2]
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11-01-2021, 04:28
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#573
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 2,690
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Re: Vendee 2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by MicHughV
more damage....Isabelle out.....broken keel ram....apparently, the keel is just free to swing around now..not clear what she is going to do..... looks to be heading to Cape Town...
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Sorry, McHugh, but you're a continent off. Everyone is rounding Cape Horn and Isabel has been routed around the low (for hopefully more moderate weather and seas) and will retire to the closest landfall in South America....
Isabel's Retirement Statement[FR]:
https://www.instagram.com/tv/CJ335mn...=1cj5ad7elohc8
LittleWing77
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11-01-2021, 05:26
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#574
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 492
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Vendee 2020
According to the Vendee Live today, Isabelle Joschke is heading east to get out of the rough weather (the waves are still 5metres plus). Once she’s in calmer seas she will be routed downwind (she can’t sail upwind with a flopping keel) to either Cape Town or Brazil, whichever seems most appropriate. Most likely Brazil.
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11-01-2021, 07:00
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#575
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Jan 2019
Boat: Beneteau 432, C&C Landfall 42, Roberts Offshore 38
Posts: 6,275
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Re: Vendee 2020
Yannick's lead reduced to 38 nm....Boris only 245 nm back.....this race is still wide open...and they havn't even hit the doldrums yet...gonna be wild...Jean 300 nm back, but with his time allowance, also puts him in the top three...
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12-01-2021, 08:28
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#576
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Jan 2019
Boat: Beneteau 432, C&C Landfall 42, Roberts Offshore 38
Posts: 6,275
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Re: Vendee 2020
I note that there are 4 non-foilers and 5 foilers in the lead pack....all within 100 nm of each other..very telling...this after 23,000 nm of racing...with his 16.15 hr handicap Jean could still win this thing....I'm betting we're gonna see a close finish...picking your way thru' the doldrum belt is going to critical.....gonna be a good finish!!!
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12-01-2021, 09:21
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#577
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: State of Hockey
Boat: 26' Mono w/ trolling motor
Posts: 23
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Re: Vendee 2020
I agree, I've worked on hydraulic system design for 15+ years and this really reeks of poor design. These systems should always be prepared for static hydraulic system failure. I'm shocked they don't have a back-up system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franziska
In a future race, I would not be surprised to see a means to physically block the keel downward if the hydraulic system fails.
Yep, sad to see Isabel go.
Apart from that I am very impressed by Armel Tripon and Jeremy, both have played a tremendous game of catch up.
Of course Pip's miracle and Jean's performance are equally impressive, as is Sébastien's McGiver approach on his hydraulic pump.
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12-01-2021, 09:52
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#578
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Jan 2019
Boat: Beneteau 432, C&C Landfall 42, Roberts Offshore 38
Posts: 6,275
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Re: Vendee 2020
the British America's Cup contender has also been having issues with the hydraulics...
those systems are under enormous hydraulic pressure, considering the short leverage arm that they have to work with...I know that there must be a better way to do this...I can think of several ways I might approach this..but so far, no Vendee competitor has asked me for direction or advice...
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12-01-2021, 22:08
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#579
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: NZL - Currently Run Aground Ashore..
Boat: Sail & Power for over 35 years, experience cruising the Eastern Caribbean, Western Med, and more
Posts: 2,129
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Re: Vendee 2020
Kevin Escoffier: Foilers are the future of IMOCA
https://www.sail-world.com/news/234422/?source=rss
Quote:
Kevin Escoffier... who is also an accomplished engineer and boat builder, believes there can be no doubt that foils are still the way ahead for a potentially winning campaign on the IMOCA championship and the Vendée Globe.
He told the IMOCA Class: "I think we have to be careful because when you look at this race we have to ask ourselves, what kind of boats are the three leaders? The reason we are a bit disappointed by the performance of the foilers is because we haven't seen the 30-knot speeds that we were expecting".
"But it is still the foilers who are ahead," he added, "even if they have been sailing quietly. When you look at the north Atlantic (on the way south), they had less wind than the daggerboard boats. And even the foilers with issues - like Thomas Ruyant on LinkedOut who has only one foil, and Charlie Dalin who has foil issues with APIVIA - they are still ahead. So we can say what we want, but it is still three foilers that are ahead in the Vendée Globe right now."
Escoffier believes that there will be more work to come on trying to make foils - or the structure of the boat that houses them - more able to withstand collision, so that one-off impacts do not have a major impact on performance over a whole race. This is something he had been working on with his old boat.
"I've always been thinking about this, even with PRB," he said. "When I changed the lower bearing on the foil, I put a shock absorber inside the bearing and a titanium part in order for the foil not to break the hull if I hit something. I've been working a lot on multihulls before monohulls and we have had this kind of issue on the multihulls for a while now, with the same speeds or even higher speeds. We are working on that - when you break a foil it is better not to break the structure of the boat."
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13-01-2021, 08:05
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#580
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: State of Hockey
Boat: 26' Mono w/ trolling motor
Posts: 23
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Re: Vendee 2020
Hydraulics are the only real option for such precise control under such high loads (I'll admit bias here ). I'm also guessing that American Magic won't tell anyone if they had hydraulic issues (Parker is their sponsor)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MicHughV
the British America's Cup contender has also been having issues with the hydraulics...
those systems are under enormous hydraulic pressure, considering the short leverage arm that they have to work with...I know that there must be a better way to do this...I can think of several ways I might approach this..but so far, no Vendee competitor has asked me for direction or advice...
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13-01-2021, 09:15
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#581
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Jan 2019
Boat: Beneteau 432, C&C Landfall 42, Roberts Offshore 38
Posts: 6,275
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Re: Vendee 2020
Tried to post the Imoca boat specs here, but was not successful...it's a long document.
Nonetheless, the pressure the ram must impose on the canting keel is rather substantial to get it to move..
Farr Design Group has also come up with what they consider the perfect Imoca boat. It's interesting to read their take....as nautical architects....on the loads the keel and foils on an Imoca boat is expected to take. Besides moving, these structures are also meant to survive an impact...designing it all is relatively easy, but designing it to be lightweight and strong is quite something else...
There is interesting Youtube video available on the design of the foil arm for the America Cup boats, as all the boats share the same arm design. It took some time to get it right. There were several structural failure's before success.
Getting a state-of-the-art-Imoca boat is not cheap either. It requires deep pockets.
I've read where the America Cup boat adventures requires a $10-12M bank account to field a boat.
I don't know how much of this...if any....will trickle down to your basic cruising sailboat.
The closest would be a moveable keel of sorts...much like you see on some sailboats, as having a 12-14' draft on most sailboats would be impractical.
Several Imoca entrants are sailing on older" used" boats...and the prize money is hardly an incentive, but ah, the fame..... !!!
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13-01-2021, 09:41
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#582
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 492
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Re: Vendee 2020
That Farr design is obviously aimed towards the convergence of the IMOCAs and the “Volvo” boats, which has been a published aim of the Round-the-world race organisers, rather than an out-and-out solo boat like Hugo Boss. The current “Volvo” boats are virtual one-designs. It would be a pity, in my opinion, if the IMOCAs became one-designs. I find the different approaches fascinating.
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13-01-2021, 10:35
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#583
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Indonesia
Boat: Outremer 55L
Posts: 3,804
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Re: Vendee 2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by MicHughV
Tried to post the Imoca boat specs here, but was not successful...it's a long document.
Nonetheless, the pressure the ram must impose on the canting keel is rather substantial to get it to move..
Farr Design Group has also come up with what they consider the perfect Imoca boat. It's interesting to read their take....as nautical architects....on the loads the keel and foils on an Imoca boat is expected to take. Besides moving, these structures are also meant to survive an impact...designing it all is relatively easy, but designing it to be lightweight and strong is quite something else...
There is interesting Youtube video available on the design of the foil arm for the America Cup boats, as all the boats share the same arm design. It took some time to get it right. There were several structural failure's before success.
Getting a state-of-the-art-Imoca boat is not cheap either. It requires deep pockets.
I've read where the America Cup boat adventures requires a $10-12M bank account to field a boat.
I don't know how much of this...if any....will trickle down to your basic cruising sailboat.
The closest would be a moveable keel of sorts...much like you see on some sailboats, as having a 12-14' draft on most sailboats would be impractical.
Several Imoca entrants are sailing on older" used" boats...and the prize money is hardly an incentive, but ah, the fame..... !!!
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Regarding the cost of an America’s Cup boat, or of a state of the art IMOCA, designing and building the boat itself is a fraction of the overall cost of the campaign. In the case of America’s Cup, you probably meant $100-$120M (estimated spend by Team NZ, the challengers are likely spending double that) with the majority going to payroll over the 3 year design and build cycle. That’s for two boats and umpteen sails and foils and some very sophisticated instruments, computers, communications and software systems and the 100-150 people needed to run everything.
We’re already seeing lifting foils and t-rudders in some custom performance catamarans. For monohulls foils that stick out the sides and use interior room are not going to be popular, but water ballast and double rudders have made it into cruising boats. If there was a way to retract the foils so they don’t stick out the sides, but also don’t use a lot of interior space, I can see designers wanting to use them. Canting keels maybe not as that requires a lot of power and also daggerboards. But certainly sails and sail handling systems and rigging. Look to the Mini class as well.
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13-01-2021, 10:44
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#584
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 492
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Re: Vendee 2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by fxykty
Regarding the cost of an America’s Cup boat, or of a state of the art IMOCA, designing and building the boat itself is a fraction of the overall cost of the campaign. In the case of America’s Cup, you probably meant $100-$120M (estimated spend by Team NZ, the challengers are likely spending double that) with the majority going to payroll over the 3 year design and build cycle. That’s for two boats and umpteen sails and foils and some very sophisticated instruments, computers, communications and software systems and the 100-150 people needed to run everything.
We’re already seeing lifting foils and t-rudders in some custom performance catamarans. For monohulls foils that stick out the sides and use interior room are not going to be popular, but water ballast and double rudders have made it into cruising boats. If there was a way to retract the foils so they don’t stick out the sides, but also don’t use a lot of interior space, I can see designers wanting to use them. Canting keels maybe not as that requires a lot of power and also daggerboards. But certainly sails and sail handling systems and rigging. Look to the Mini class as well.
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This foil configuration perhaps doesn’t take up so much interior space
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=be...nVCvPHebcJw0aM
The most radical Mini Transat boats are, well, advanced, including canting keels with adjustable angle of attack, foils with adjustable rake, and t-rudders with adjustable angle-of-attack! And all in twenty feet or so.
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13-01-2021, 10:57
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#585
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: NZL - Currently Run Aground Ashore..
Boat: Sail & Power for over 35 years, experience cruising the Eastern Caribbean, Western Med, and more
Posts: 2,129
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Re: Vendee 2020
And as a slight aside, here is an interesting article about the trickle down effect of sustained Cup campaigns over decades - not purely the economic one, but the technology one.
The additional development, distribution, and growing of the talent pool and knowledge base across multiple facets of business and technology is especially important in a small country like NZ.
America's Cup: Racing is just the tip of the economic iceberg for Auckland
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/americ...g-for-auckland
Team New Zealand even partners with NZ company Rocket Lab:
Quote:
“There has been quite a bit of crossover in personnel between both organisations – they’ve got some of ours, we’ve got some of theirs. They needed guys to be able to build the fuselages of those rockets, and we had the experts to do it.”
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