Thoughts on ketches and yawls

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

but a 37’ cutter ..... more speed in addition to everything a 37’ ketch offers.

Well, let's agree to disagree.

For sure the cutter will never have the looks of the ketch. At least in this particular line of boats (the Shannon's) they offered both cutters and ketches and the ketches were way more attractive

I would argue a few other points also for the ketch, but I don't see any reason to - you do you, and I personally don't see any reason to blanket discourage folks from a (smaller) ketch. We loved it and for sure would pick it again (over the cutter) for certain tasks, but obviously would also pick a fractional sloop for other tasks - horses for courses.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

Well, let's agree to disagree.

For sure the cutter will never have the looks of the ketch. At least in this particular line of boats (the Shannon's) they offered both cutters and ketches and the ketches were way more attractive

I would argue a few other points also for the ketch, but I don't see any reason to - you do you, and I personally don't see any reason to blanket discourage folks from a (smaller) ketch. We loved it and for sure would pick it again (over the cutter) for certain tasks, but obviously would also pick a fractional sloop for other tasks - horses for courses.

Oh I agree that a ketch looks much better… I mean, Jedi is a ketch as well.

Also, people wrote about yawls… I never owned one nor sailed on one so I have no direct experience at all. They may well be ideal, I was more comparing ketch vs cutter for boats < 50’ and without taking their looks into consideration

[ramron67]

Originally Posted by sailingabe41ds

... I am too lazy to put up a spinnaker .. so its the main and the jib and off I go...
Oh....did I mentioned I have a wife

Abe

Perhaps not quite a traditional spinnaker, but I rig the gennaker specifically for my wife. The worst thing for her is to bounce around in low winds.

[petit bateau]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

We have a cutter stay and staysail as well. While testing it we found it doesn’t really work at anything less than 25kts wind. It does balance with double reefed main and mizzen; I haven’t tried it with just the mizzen.

I truly believe the ketch rig is a much better choice for cruising, even with the added rigging and cost… but (and here comes the catch) I believe it only starts making sense for boats 50’ and up.

Surely the logical extension of that thought, is that for 50' length and above, especially if a mast-height constraint is an issue (e.g. IWC), and (obviously?) with cost minimisation as part of the objective, is to select a two-masted schooner with equal, identically-rigged masts ? That way you get a lot of rig for relatively little extra money, and all the rig is handle-able by the crew, and there are a lot of different options for how to set up in different conditions.

[Jdege]

What is the usual difference between main and mizzen in a ketch?

My main is 28'4" and my mizzen 26'0". Not a lot of difference, but some.

Is the difference more significant on most ketches?

[merrydolphin]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

We have a cutter stay and staysail as well. While testing it we found it doesn’t really work at anything less than 25kts wind. It does balance with double reefed main and mizzen; I haven’t tried it with just the mizzen.

I truly believe the ketch rig is a much better choice for cruising, even with the added rigging and cost… but (and here comes the catch) I believe it only starts making sense for boats 50’ and up.

I had a Kelly Peterson 44 true cutter. Had similar experience with staysail. I always had to fly a little bit of jib too to get the boat to balance.

Loved the versatility of my Cal 2-46 Ketch. Nice rig. Nothing to big. Lower rig for bridges, and versatile. And good for balance and short sailing. In my sixties, I could still easily single hand this boat! Slab reefing on main and mizzenmast rigged with Tides Marine sail slides and Mack Pac. Single line reefing, power primaries. Nice rig. Great boat. Sailed 200 mile days, motored as good as many trawlers. Full walk in engine room. And yes, best for center cocpit larger boats.

[JoeRobertJr]

Originally Posted by Jdege

What is the usual difference between main and mizzen in a ketch?

My main is 28'4" and my mizzen 26'0". Not a lot of difference, but some.

Is the difference more significant on most ketches?

sailboatdata.com shows the following for two boats that interest me:
The Pearson 424 ketch has a mizzen mast 15' shorter than the main mast.
The Morgan Out Island 41 ketch also has a difference of 15'.

[merrydolphin]

Originally Posted by JoeRobertJr

sailboatdata.com shows the following for two boats that interest me:
The Pearson 424 ketch has a mizzen mast 15' shorter than the main mast.
The Morgan Out Island 41 ketch also has a difference of 15'.

Typically the mizzen is a good bit shorter of both boom and mast. If not it is a schooner.

An exception of this is an unusual rig: The Taunton 43. Is it a Ketch? Is it a Schooner? Your choice. They are both quite even in all dimensions.
Interesting boat actually. I guy bought one and hired me to teach him on it.
Free standing rig. Actually sailed quite well. Nice lines and underbody too. She was a pretty quick cruiser.

[rls8r]

I believe that a Tanton 43 is a cat ketch. I'd be reluctant to call a boat with masts that far forward a schooner.

Some schooners have masts of the same height. Growing up on the Chesapeake, I was always taught that a flying jib schooner with masts the same height were to be called "rams" (although I have heard folks refer to them as "ram schooners"). To my mind, calling a rig a "ram" implied that she was a schooner.

[Jdege]

Originally Posted by merrydolphin

Typically the mizzen is a good bit shorter of both boom and mast. If not it is a schooner.

Mine is a Herreshoff Meadowlark, as implemented in fiberglass by Allan Vaitses and stretched from 33' to 37'.

I have some old advertising copy that claims that both main and mizzen are 178 ft^2, but I've not measured the sails themselves.

So is it a schooner? Not quite...

[Bermuda Forte]

Originally Posted by RonAcierno

So I rarely post, but this conversation is near to heart. I've owned many of these different types of boats, and more importantly, I sail them when I have them every week at a minimum, so I speak from a point of experience.



Sloops:

catalina 25, catalina 250, catalina 320, najad 38 (and various others)



Yawls:

nimble 20 (sharpie hull), nimble 24 (sharpie hull), nimble 30 (centerboard keel stub)

Block Island 40 (centerboard modified full keel, current boat)



Ketch:

Cheoy Lee 33



Cutter:

Cabo Rico 38



I can say with some experience that nothing, NOTHING beats a yawl for single handed work or longer distance work, with a ketch coming close. The split rig allows one to sail jib and jigger in 40knots when everyone else has to go home. and the mizzen, albeit small, is set way aft. this means it can balance the larger jib (i mean the 130, not the drifter) quite well (an earlier poster commented that the tiny mizzen might not be up to balancing the jib...its position does allow it to do so). As i'm older and my twin rotator cuff surgeries mandate less acrobatics, so for this, the split rig is a godsend...but the real blessing is that I never miss a planned sail due to high wind days, because I, and more importantly, my junior crew, feel pretty confident in any weather. She's balanced without being overpowered under jib and jigger in a way that even a ketch cannot achieve. I rarely set my autopilot once balanced, and admittedly the keel helps with that...

I agree in so many ways. Jib and jigger has been a terrific sail choice (although I can’t recall having my B40 out in 40 kts). And, my rotator cuffs are troublesome too!

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by RonAcierno

So I rarely post, but this conversation is near to heart. I've owned many of these different types of boats, and more importantly, I sail them when I have them every week at a minimum, so I speak from a point of experience.



Sloops:

catalina 25, catalina 250, catalina 320, najad 38 (and various others)



Yawls:

nimble 20 (sharpie hull), nimble 24 (sharpie hull), nimble 30 (centerboard keel stub)

Block Island 40 (centerboard modified full keel, current boat)



Ketch:

Cheoy Lee 33



Cutter:

Cabo Rico 38



I can say with some experience that nothing, NOTHING beats a yawl for single handed work or longer distance work, with a ketch coming close. The split rig allows one to sail jib and jigger in 40knots when everyone else has to go home. and the mizzen, albeit small, is set way aft. this means it can balance the larger jib (i mean the 130...

I get that you like having 2 masts but I can’t understand how anyone could think that a 130 Genoa that’s reefed way beyond the point of having decent sail shape, and balanced by a mizzen, is a great way to sail. In 40 knots of wind, if that 130 Genoa is not pretty well furled, you’ve got too much sail up, and it’s center of effort is also up pretty high. Yes, it’s balanced, but you’re not going to weather very well with that rig. I also don’t get why you think everybody else has to go home in 40 knots of wind. A cutter or slutter can also be well balanced with a small, low, sail area, and with both sails working together and shaped as they should be so you can actually sail above a reach.

There’s more than one way to skin a cat and if jib and jigger makes you happy than that’s good, but a sloop rigged with a staysail and deeply reefed main also allows for easy singlehanding and a balanced rig in high wind conditions. You need a very deep reef in your mainsail in order to properly balance the small area of the staysail but if you have that, I think it’s the simplest and best way to reduce sail area in high winds, especially if you need to sail into the wind.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

There’s more than one way to skin a cat and if jib and jigger makes you happy than that’s good, but a sloop rigged with a staysail and deeply reefed main also allows for easy singlehanding and a balanced rig in high wind conditions. You need a very deep reef in your mainsail in order to properly balance the small area of the staysail but if you have that, I think it’s the simplest and best way to reduce sail area in high winds, especially if you need to sail into the wind.

That staysail would make it a cutter, right? This is what I wrote before: a cutter for a cruising boat under 50’ is very hard to beat when taking all factors into consideration.

[Montanan]

Excellent reference article.

https://www.jordanyachts.com/3745

Sailboat Rig Types: Sloop, Cutter, Ketch, Yawl, Schooner, Cat

POSTED ON JANUARY 13, 2011
BY RICHARD JORDAN