Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 22-11-2021, 11:30   #46
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Jan 2019
Boat: Beneteau 432, C&C Landfall 42, Roberts Offshore 38
Posts: 6,594
Re: Thoughts on ketches and yawls

genia ???...what's dat ????
MicHughV is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22-11-2021, 17:07   #47
Marine Service Provider
 
ewsponberg's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Living on board
Boat: Custom 35, Corroboree
Posts: 177
Re: Thoughts on ketches and yawls

Nice thread. I wrote an article called "The Deketchification of America" for Professional Boatbuilder magazine back in April/May 2013, issue #145. It's my take on the design situation of ketches--or lack thereof, coining a new word in the process. Here is a link to the article: https://www.ericwsponberg.com/wp-con...ca-PBB-142.pdf.

Enjoy!
__________________
Eric W. Sponberg
Naval Architect (retired)
St. Augustine, FL
ewsponberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-11-2021, 17:45   #48
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Jan 2019
Boat: Beneteau 432, C&C Landfall 42, Roberts Offshore 38
Posts: 6,594
Re: Thoughts on ketches and yawls

I don't care who, why, or what.....but I'd pick a ketch any day of the week.

The above articles is correct...boat designers/builders go for most bang of the buck these days to cater to cruiser wannabee's. Boats are equipped with a/c....usually two units, microwaves, spring cushions for sleeping on..two heads is almost mandatory....every electronic device known to mankind festoons the helm and nav station area....generator, off course...furling sails...natch....solar panels, dingy davits, twin helms autopilot, etc, etc....at the end of this long list comes the rig off course...

a new boat almost always comes with only two sails...main and jib......both furling off course, storm sails forgetaboutit...spinnakers...ha ha ha...none to be seen...

I might be old school...but I know what I like...
MicHughV is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22-11-2021, 18:05   #49
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 538
Re: Thoughts on ketches and yawls

As a US Sailing Cruising instructor, I have been asked many times this by students. Only itís usually: sloop, cutter or ketch (or yawl).
My answer is: I have owned and extensively sailed all three, the one I preferred wasÖÖthe one that I had! I liked them all. They all worked as designed. Never have had much experience on a Yawl. Again. Itís down to the old and dependable truism that ďeverything is a trade-offĒ. I loved my Cal 2-46 center cockpit ketch.
My Kelly Peterson Cutter and my SandS sloop, my Tartan Sloop etc. they all worked well. I never wanted to change or modify them. They worked as designed.
Enjoy what you have.
merrydolphin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-11-2021, 07:19   #50
Registered User
 
ramron67's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Newton, MA
Boat: Pearson P-35
Posts: 125
Images: 1
Re: Thoughts on ketches and yawls

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicHughV View Post
genia ???...what's dat ????
Genoa, presumably...
__________________
A sailor's joys are as simple as a child's.
Bernard Moitessier
ramron67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-11-2021, 18:34   #51
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Jan 2019
Boat: Beneteau 432, C&C Landfall 42, Roberts Offshore 38
Posts: 6,594
Re: Thoughts on ketches and yawls

I was just thinking about this....ketch vs. sloop....rigging costs...

True, the ketch has two masts, but these are generally a smaller size than the single mast of a sloop of the same size, and obviously not as a tall.
Same goes for boom sizes, rigging wire sizes, etc...

While I haven't done a cost comparison...between a ketch rig and a sloop rig on the same size boat, I'm pretty sure that the cost difference is likely not much.
MicHughV is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 23-11-2021, 19:04   #52
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: PNW
Boat: 35 Ft. cutter, custom
Posts: 2,478
Re: Thoughts on ketches and yawls

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicHughV View Post
While I haven't done a cost comparison...between a ketch rig and a sloop rig on the same size boat, I'm pretty sure that the cost difference is likely not much.
I think you might be surprised at the increase;
Two masts, two booms, additional spreaders and their attachments, now start adding-up the standing and running rigging, winches, cleats, reefing gear, etc.
Not to mention the increases in structural work required for a boat with more than one mast, and the mast steps themselves.
Price out some turnbuckles and chainplates, and swedge fittings.
Most of the price in a sail is the material and labor needed for the corner reinforcements and reefing points,, adding a few feet to luff/leech/foot is not that much, it's all the corner work, and on a two masted boat it's doubled.
Bowdrie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 23-11-2021, 21:37   #53
Registered User
 
bailsout's Avatar

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Morro Bay, CA
Boat: Herreshoff 28 modified ketch- wood
Posts: 384
Re: Thoughts on ketches and yawls

Of course the increased costs are not so much if you do the labor. Not that I really enjoyed going up the mizzen today to sand for varnish tomorrow.
bailsout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2021, 03:37   #54
Registered User
 
pcmm's Avatar

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Whitby, Canada
Boat: Morgan Out Island 41
Posts: 2,284
Images: 2
Re: Thoughts on ketches and yawls

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicHughV View Post
I was just thinking about this....ketch vs. sloop....rigging costs...

True, the ketch has two masts, but these are generally a smaller size than the single mast of a sloop of the same size, and obviously not as a tall.
Same goes for boom sizes, rigging wire sizes, etc...

While I haven't done a cost comparison...between a ketch rig and a sloop rig on the same size boat, I'm pretty sure that the cost difference is likely not much.
Having rerigged my Ketch. Its like doing 2 boats. 40 footer + a 20 footer. 14 stays in all. Its not twice the cost but it adds up. Reregging my ketch cost me $6k including a furler and me doing all the work! A suit of sails cost me $11k. But the benefit is that individually (except the genoa) the sails are silightly smaller and easier to handle so the winches and blocks arrangements can be slightly smaller. but it defintly costs a fair bit more, but you get versatility out of the rig that you don't get with a sloop...

but it is a pain every fall and spring to have to go up the mizzen to deal with the triatic stay in order to step/unstep the masts!
pcmm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2021, 04:18   #55
always in motion is the future
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 19,197
Re: Thoughts on ketches and yawls

No words needed
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	75EDFA29-DEB1-4914-AC42-55B69CC68BD9.jpeg
Views:	80
Size:	38.3 KB
ID:	248798  
__________________
ďItís a trap!Ē - Admiral Ackbar.

s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2021, 04:50   #56
Registered User
 
ramron67's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Newton, MA
Boat: Pearson P-35
Posts: 125
Images: 1
Re: Thoughts on ketches and yawls

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
No words needed
Nice!

Here is an old school version...
__________________
A sailor's joys are as simple as a child's.
Bernard Moitessier
ramron67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2021, 04:56   #57
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Penobscot Bay, Maine
Boat: Tayana 47
Posts: 2,124
Re: Thoughts on ketches and yawls

I really like the look of both the yawl and ketch rigs but other than the ability to have a riding sail at anchor and the ability to increase sail area while having a shorter main mast, and to fly an aft downwind sail (very infrequent), they donít seem very worthwhile given all the extra hardware thatís required. In very strong winds I think youíre much better off with a triple reefed main and a staysail than you are with similar sail area at the opposite ends of your vessel while running under jib and jigger. Your highly reefed jib will have terrible sail shape with a high center of effort and if your 3rd reef (or roller furling main) is deep you can have just as small a sail area up as you could using a mizzen. Iím sure it works fine off the wind but I think the same thing can be accomplished and with better windward performance, by using a staysail and deeply reefed main. But there have been times in rolly anchorages when I thought a riding sail would be a nice thing to have. For me, I really like the simplicity of just one mast with a furling main, jib, and staysail. But I do enjoy looking at ketches and yawls and if I had a great desire to do the whole inland waterway, Iíd probably have one, but Iíd still want to have at least a detachable inner forestay for those times when Iíd otherwise be tempted to use my jib more than about 30% reefed.
jtsailjt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2021, 05:43   #58
always in motion is the future
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 19,197
Re: Thoughts on ketches and yawls

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
I really like the look of both the yawl and ketch rigs but other than the ability to have a riding sail at anchor and the ability to increase sail area while having a shorter main mast, and to fly an aft downwind sail (very infrequent), they donít seem very worthwhile given all the extra hardware thatís required. In very strong winds I think youíre much better off with a triple reefed main and a staysail than you are with similar sail area at the opposite ends of your vessel while running under jib and jigger. Your highly reefed jib will have terrible sail shape with a high center of effort and if your 3rd reef (or roller furling main) is deep you can have just as small a sail area up as you could using a mizzen. Iím sure it works fine off the wind but I think the same thing can be accomplished and with better windward performance, by using a staysail and deeply reefed main. But there have been times in rolly anchorages when I thought a riding sail would be a nice thing to have. For me, I really like the simplicity of just one mast with a furling main, jib, and staysail. But I do enjoy looking at ketches and yawls and if I had a great desire to do the whole inland waterway, Iíd probably have one, but Iíd still want to have at least a detachable inner forestay for those times when Iíd otherwise be tempted to use my jib more than about 30% reefed.
We have 3rd reefs in both main and mizzen. The jib is a 95% radial cut high aspect that is good up to 20-25kts wind. When we drop mizzen and jib, we can tack upwind on just the main in perfect balance. Or do the same with mizzen and jib.
When itís windy, we normally drop the main and continue through the night comfortably on mizzen and jib, doing 7 kts boat speed while it feels like we entered a marina when the main comes down.
Yes, more rigging.
__________________
ďItís a trap!Ē - Admiral Ackbar.

s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2021, 17:51   #59
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Jan 2019
Boat: Beneteau 432, C&C Landfall 42, Roberts Offshore 38
Posts: 6,594
Re: Thoughts on ketches and yawls

this probably has nothing to do with sailing...but my first boat was a ketch....

one feature I came to really appreciate, was that I could drape an awning over the mizzen boom to provide shade for the aft cabin....in addition, I fabricated two " mini" windscoops "ears" that fitted over the aft cabin forward portholes, one each side, the wide end being lashed to the lifelines.

the awning and windscoops made the aft cabin the coolest area on the boat.

If it rained, I could keep the aft hatch open as it, and the windscoop "ears" were covered by the awning.
MicHughV is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2021, 19:41   #60
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Penobscot Bay, Maine
Boat: Tayana 47
Posts: 2,124
Re: Thoughts on ketches and yawls

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
We have 3rd reefs in both main and mizzen. The jib is a 95% radial cut high aspect that is good up to 20-25kts wind. When we drop mizzen and jib, we can tack upwind on just the main in perfect balance. Or do the same with mizzen and jib.

When itís windy, we normally drop the main and continue through the night comfortably on mizzen and jib, doing 7 kts boat speed while it feels like we entered a marina when the main comes down.

Yes, more rigging.


The ability to sail upwind on main alone is a very nice feature but not too many boats do that very well so Iíd say youíre pretty fortunate in that respect. Reducing sail area and keeping it low does allow you to sail comfortably in high winds, as you say like you entered a marina. A mizzen allows that but so does a 3rd reefed mainsail. A staysail provides the same amount of sail area as a severely reefed jib but with better shape for sailing to windward and located lower and closer to the center of the boat. Jib and jigger sounds like it works great for you but wouldnít a staysail and deeply reefed mainsail work at least as well and probably a little better because it would yield the same amount of balanced sail area but with a slightly lower center of effort. I can see where it would be more convenient to completely lower the main in strong winds and be done with it so thatís an advantage but it just seems to me that a staysail combined with a deeply reefed main yields better sailing characteristics than does jib and jigger if that means using a drastically reefed jib to get the sail area down to whatís needed in very strong winds.
jtsailjt is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
ketch

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Windvanes on Ketches and Yawls: Show and Tell Steadman Uhlich Monohull Sailboats 34 27-07-2019 22:10
Modern center cockpit ketches or yawls? umphrey1012 Monohull Sailboats 11 27-06-2018 17:44
Wm Garden designed and inspired 40' Taiwan ketches Vino the Dog Monohull Sailboats 7 17-06-2018 06:36
CCA type yawls... 6227 General Sailing Forum 12 01-11-2016 10:21
Advice: Books on Sail Trim for Ketches? heatherbrie Seamanship & Boat Handling 1 01-10-2010 09:46

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 18:29.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.